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What difference is it if Mr. Stav becomes chief rabbi? Mr. Goren was a previous chief rabbi, and being a chief rabbi doesn’t kasher or make someone more acceptable.
If a moderate is elected to the Rabbanut, than much needed changes can be made to the administrative positions undertaken.
“I think that ultimately, the humbling that the Haredi parties will experience will do them good in the long run.”
While I often vehemently disagree with you, I must say I appreciate you do not misrepresent or hide your outlook.
I will repeat, the Chief Rabbi is not for the Charedim, they have their own Rabbanim, ie the Belz answer to the Belzer Rebbe, the Ger to the Gerrer Rebbe, the LItvish to Rav Shteinmen The Sefardic Charedim to Rav Yosef etc this wouldnt change no matter who is the chief Rabbi
The Chief rabbi is for chilonim and deals with their religious issues and issues related to the government
kwalker: “Mr.” Goren? That’s ridiculous. Arguing than those greater than you and not being necessarily right does not revoke one’s right to an opinion nor change the fact that he was a major Talmid Chacham.
“the humbling that the Haredi parties “
It was more of being disabused of the notion that they can be Hareidi and Zionists. They learned that the Eidah Hareidis had been right all along. The two ideologies, Torah on the one hand, and belief in a nation-state with sovereignity over a piece of land on the other, and inherently incompatible. The two (really three, Degel ha-Torah and Agudah are separate but in alliance) parties (not to mention many YWN readers) had come to believe that Medinat Yisrael was good for the Jews and was a country that supported Torah and Mitsvos, even though the evidence is that the medinah has always had a policy of coercing Jews to go “off the derekh” and support for yeshivos was only a bargaining ploy to buy off those hareidim who were able to be bought off.
The irony is, that real political considerations in Israel may force the zionists to abandon conscription. It is already unpopular with many hilonim and virtually all Arabs (who are about half of the goyim living in Israel, the rest are zionists with some Jewish ancestry but not halachic Jews), and the open resistance of the anti-zionist hareidim will be such that the zionists will end up abolishing conscription and switching to a professional army. Once that happens, hareidi baal ha-battim who are on the books as learning full time, will be able to be on the books working and the hareidim community will prosper. In addition, the army (and eventually Israeli at large, which copies the army) will finally make a good faith effort to accomodate hareidim in the military not as a result of political bargains but out of a need to recruit soldiers, and not just for a handful of “Jim Crow” units. So the future is actually quite bright for the hareidim community, once the tumult over the (to be soon realized as being futile) attempts to mass conscript yeshiva students are abandonned.
I’d be more than happy if the Haredi parties disappeared and I’d be even happier if we had an influx of Haredim into the US, as long as they voted Republican.
Sam2: Moses Mendelssohn was also “a major talmid chochom”.
“Mr.” Goren? That’s ridiculous. Arguing than those greater than you and not being necessarily right does not revoke one’s right to an opinion nor change the fact that he was a major Talmid Chacham.
I dunno Sam. I’m kind of uncomfortable calling him a Rabbi also. I know he knew lots of torah, but I sort of also associate the title with the responsibilities that come with it.
And I kind of think that trading halacha for political position is not quite living up to that. For blazing sake, the guy ran for chief rabbi on a platform that he would be mattir mamzeirim, and then proceeded to do so after he won.
Kwaiker, you are guilty of hotzaat shem ra on many Jews and bizui talmid chacham (RAV Goren).
Akuperma, there is no law that states that a person cannot work unless he has completed army service. If someone is not learning full-time (i.e. he is working) he is then subject to the draft assuming that he meets the age and medical requirements.
Avi K. If you have not served in the army and are officially listed as learning full time (in order to evade military service), you are legally prohibited from working “on the books”. Thus if you hold, as most hareidim do, that military service is contrary to halacha due to the hostility of ther army to a Torah-based lifestyle (which is the case except in some specialized units), you do not have the option of working outside the frum community (which is technically “off the books”). Obviously the army could stop persecuting orthodox Jews, but as the recent incident involving religious zionists who were expelled from officer training for refusing to listen to female singers (which is considered erotic and lewd in Jewish culture, some similar to if am American officer coruse required going to a burlesque show as a condition of commissioning), it is unlikely that the IDF will make the necessary adaptation to allow hareidim to serve (other than in the “Jim Crow” type units such as the “Nahal Hareidi” – i.e., the Israeli equivalent of the American colored infantry regiments or the British native regiments).
However once hareidim resistance forces the zionists to end conscription, frum Jews will free to work, and the IDF if it needs manpower will be forced to see toleration of a Torah lifestyle in a positive light. Thus I am optimistic about the law term future.
zdad:
“I will repeat, the Chief Rabbi is not for the Charedim”
True, but it’s still got to conform to the actual Halacha. There are only so many heterim you can use while still claiming to have an authentic, unbiased interpretation of the Halacha.
Avi K:
“there is no law that states that a person cannot work unless he has completed army service”
Oh yes there is.
akuperma:
“However once hareidim resistance forces the zionists to end conscription”
If only.
“the Chief Rabbi is not for the Charedim”
The charedi leaders didn’t think so the last chief rabbi election.
” the guy ran for chief rabbi on a platform that he would be mattir mamzeirim”
No, he ran on a platform to matir one mamzer situation. And any rabbi who doesn’t attempt to do that in every mamzer situation he encounters is no rabbi.
Interestingly, the method he used — pasuling a conversion — caused vehement objections from the same charedim who are pasuling conversions *en masse* today.
“Those rabbonim were in contact with Mr. Lieberman only before he went off the derech and became an apikorus by joining the Conservative movement.”
Not true. I have personally seen copies of some of the correspondence between Rav Soloveitchik z’tz’l and Rav Lieberman z’tz’l from the 1950s when they were trying to set up a joint beit din across Orthodoxy and the Conservative movement. Interestingly, it was the Conservatives who backed out. The Rav would never have agreed to serve on a beit din with an apikorus!
Not true. I have personally seen copies of some of the correspondence between Rav Soloveitchik z’tz’l and Rav Lieberman z’tz’l from the 1950s when they were trying to set up a joint beit din across Orthodoxy and the Conservative movement. Interestingly, it was the Conservatives who backed out. The Rav would never have agreed to serve on a beit din with an apikorus!
I never was a fan of the Rav.
In any event, I’m not sure what that story is supposed to prove. I’m sure the Rav didn’t think that conservative judaism is legitimate.
rebdoniel: “I’d be even happier if we had an influx of Haredim into the US, as long as they voted Republican. “
Hareidim, in America, tend to be solid Democrats. Have you noticed which party people like Dov Hikind caucus with? While we are social conservatives, we tend to believe the government should help the poor, and not worry too much about balancing the budget. Arguably they got the idea from us. The traditional conservative approach in America was that giving tsadakah would corrupt the poor, deprive them of self-respect, and discourage them for bettering themselves (thus welfare was only if you were down to the clothes on your back, and involving moving to the “poor house” or “debtors prison”).
While the 21st century warrants a reconsideration of these positions (and I am much closer to Von Hayek than Lord Keynes), Hareidim tend to be natural leftists on economic matters (something that may prove very “interesting” in Eretz Yisrael in the immediate future, since that will facilitate allying with Labor and the Arabs against conscription).
Charliehall,
hat to break it to you but Goren was universally condemned by Rabbonim in eretz Yisroel from the Ultra-Orthodox to the Zionist excluding the Ultra Liberals.
Perhaps not all used the Stiepler’s words (written in an easily obtained letter) in which he stated that Goren was a Chamor Noseh Seforim (Donkey carrying books) but condemned he was.
In fact the despicable nature of his act was something that United Torah Jewry.
And please don’t be intellectually dishonest enough to compare his “heter” to the modern day controversy.
In his case the proper Geirus was proven beyond doubt and upheld by subsequent Batei Dinim.
In the modern day cases, Zionist Rabbonim are the actual initiators of an investigation proving that there was real doubt as to the BD procedures and Kabbolas Mitzvos, enough doubt to have arguabley damaged the Chazaka of said BD hence throwing into question all conversions done by them.
The GOP recently comissioned a report and why they lost.
The haredim would be wise to act similary although not much research is given.
You do not win friends and influence people when some members of your community spit and taunt 8 year old girls and then claim they are not part of the community and nothing can be done. People are excommunited or put in Siruv for many offenses in the Charedi community including having a TV or using the internet. Surely you and excommunicatre and throw the children out of school of Sikirim who spit and taunt 8 year old girls.
You dont win friends when you call people Goyim, Haters of Torah etc who do not agree with you. Especially when their views are certainly within Halachic boundaries
The Charedim taking over the Marriages did not only did not stop non-kosher marriages , it made many people who could have married Kosher decide to be married in Cyrpus because they did not want the red tape. 20% of all marriages in Israel occur in Cyprus.
You dont take money from people and then act like you are doing a favor for them. Either dont take the money or at least be thankful for the generousity of other.
Kanoi, I don’t know where you live but b”H I have lived in Israel for 25 years and I know people who work even though they have not done the Army for various reasons (too old when they came, medical reasons etc.). I also know young men who worked before their actual enlistment date. Once more, an Israeli citizen who is not learning full time (or at least registered in a yeshiva/kollel and not caught) is eligible for the draft. Until and unless he actually enlists he may work for whomever will hire him. It could be that employers will not be quick to hire someone who may be drafted in the near future but
that is their consideration. So far as the law is concerned they may hire them.
If they are under a draft order or if they were given a draft exemption for yeshiva, in either case they are legally precluded from being employed. Thus the inability to legally work on the books, due to the law.
The future of Israel’s Orthodox Jews? Strong!
How do I know? The answer is in Acco. In a fortress that used to be a British prison.
In that fortress, there is a museum dedicated to those who gave their lives there al kiddush hashem for Am Yisroel and Eretz Yisroel. And in that museum, there is a pair of tfilin. They belonged to Dov Groner. Groner was executed by the British for his activities in the Irgun. He was and is an inspiration to generations of Israelis. He was a yeshiva educated frum Jew.
He wasn’t ordered to leave a yeshiva, and he didn’t stop learning. He recognized his responsibility as a Jew in a Jewish land and he fought as well as learned.
He lived and died for the future of Am Yisroel.
The Israel that he helped to create has seen the most incredible expansion of Torah learning in the History of Am yisroel. Much of that has been subsidized by the state. A state interested in shmad doesn’t “waste” its precious resources on something it does not value.
The Israel he helped create has yeshivos where talmidim and kollel learners reach heights of dveykus and amilus in Torah learning, and then get in a tank or a jeep and protect Jewish lives. They aren’t in bnei brak. they are in Maalot, Maaleh Adumim, Ashdod, Gush Etzion, and all over the country. A state interested in subjugating and persecuting Torah learners doesn’t train them to arms they may take up against their “persecution”.
The Israel he helped create has had Prime Ministers who every motzei shabbos for decades brought the leading scholars from all fields together to study Torah in their households. A state interested in shmad isn’t led by those who value Torah.
The Israel he helped create has members of Knesset who learn gemoro from the podium of the knesset chamber, and who establish shiurim weekly for the MK’s to be inspired by Torah. Decades of chareidi politicians never did this. It took a woman, from a party being accused of shmad, to bring more holiness to the manhigut of the country.
The future is bright for those who actually care about the future, and who can think beyond their entitlements. It is an egregious, yet smug and self satisfying lie to insist that those who do not wear a particular levush or follow a particular hashkafic approach are not “frum”, are not “orthodox”.
For the first time in almost 2000 years we can think as a nation and take up once again the responsibilities we have as a nation. For centuries we had no outlet for this aspect of our existence but now we do. It is the opportunity we have to demonstrate to the eibishter that we can be a complete people, not a collection of individuals doing individual mitzvos. That requires both more responsibility and more ahavas achim than many are used to. Israel is the place and now is the time to show HKBH what we can be.
We can turn away from the challenge, turn inwards, if we choose to shut out the rest of the orthodox world who are moving towards that future. But if so, we should never again falsely claim that we look forward to the geulah. We will have refused to recognize its birth pangs. We will have made our insularity a liability.
We are all, chareidi, dati, secular, all of us, better than that.
May we all be zocheh to a complete geulah bimhero biyomenu. Chag kosher vesomeyach, everyone.
yichus: the mental contortions it takes to be a religious zionist are so endearing.
“I’m sure the Rav didn’t think that conservative judaism is legitimate.”
He certainly did not. He refused to attend events in Conservative synagogues, and when a conservative rabbi who had been very supportive of his attempts to create the joint beit din with Rabbi Lieberman died, he stood outside the conservative synagogue in the rain to honor the rabbi rather than enter the building lest people think he would honor the Conservative movement.
Yichusdik,
I couldn’t agree more.
Torat Yisrael, Medinat Yisrael, Am Yisrael.
“Hareidim, in America, tend to be solid Democrats. Have you noticed which party people like Dov Hikind caucus with? While we are social conservatives, we tend to believe the government should help the poor, and not worry too much about balancing the budget.”
Haredim mostly vote overwhelmingly Republican in national elections; the margins in the haredi areas in Brooklyn resemble those in rural Texas! Assemblyman Hikind is nowhere near as conservative as most of this constituents, and he has the support of another frum Jew, Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver, to remain a Democrat; as a Republican in the overwhelmingly Democratic New York State Assembly he’d have no ability to help constituents. Perhaps haredim in Brooklyn believe in helping the poor but they vote for candidates who want to reduce such help. And they may be social conservatives but they turned out in overwhelming margins to elect Mike Bloomberg.
“Hayek”
Hayek approved of mandatory universal health insurance. Today’s Republicans do not.
Charlie: So then how am I supposed to understand your first story, that he wanted to set up a joint beis din with them. Is one permitted to set up a joint beis din, but not permitted to enter their batei avodah zara?
“some members of your community spit and taunt 8 year old girls”
I know lots of charedim. Not one would ever imagine that doing that was acceptable, much less mutar! Why didn’t the rabbis say something? The silence was deafening!!!
“the despicable nature of his act”
Solving a mamzer problem is despicable?
“hence throwing into question all conversions done by them.”
Still requires an investigation into each and every case. Regardless of the question there is nothing in halachah that permits an *en masse* pasuling of conversions. Must I remind you what Chazal say about a beit din that doesn’t hear from all parties involved before deciding a case? Sorry, but you can’t make up halachah.
And if R’Druckman’s actions were so offensive, why didn’t the charedim take down the government? He was a government appointee and the charedim had the votes. Fortunately the religious judge on the Israeli Supreme Court restored things to proper order.
I should mention that I am unfamiliar with ANY of the particular cases that were involved with R’Druckman’s beit din. If a particular beit din has reason, after investigation, to question the conversion and to require a giyur l’chumra, that is within their authority. The problem is the deciding of a case — or, in this case, multiple cases — without investigation. There is nothing in halachah that provides for that.
I know lots of charedim. Not one would ever imagine that doing that was acceptable, much less mutar! Why didn’t the rabbis say something? The silence was deafening!!!
And Its time to end the excuses on it , Millions of dollars was spent on Asifas. Internet Bans, TV bands etc.
When Charedi Rabbis make a proclimation the Tzibur listens. They declare one must die or go to jail rather than go to the army and I am sure people will follow
How hard is it to say, We shall Banish the Sikarim who spit and curse 8 year old girls creating treamendous Chilul Hashem. They will not be allowed in our shuls , their children will not be allowed in our schools
Ah, Popa, us contortionists love a good workout.
But I must beg to differ. I am a Zionist observant Jew, no more or less, not a “religious zionist” I am not beholden to this “camp” or that “camp”. I am also not blind, so forgive me for seeing the ikveso demeshicho (not just in the medina, but well before) as HKBH intends for those with open eyes to see.
It’s pretty simple to me, actually. It is who I am, its in my yichus, in the teaching of my parents and grandparents and greatgrandparents (including the one – among many others – who davened at the Mizrachi shul in Krakow in shtreimel and bekeshe), its in the old yishuv in yerushalayim where my grandfather was born, its in the yeshiva in chevron where my great uncle’s classmates were murdered. Its in the bases where my cousins are serving, its in the yeshivos they learned in first. Its in sefer Yirmiyahu. Its in the botei knesios at Katzrin and Masada.
In fact, the only thing I need to contort my brain to figure out is how you can be so obtuse about it. But in a very endearing way, of course.
Zdad, Charlie, the silence was not deafening. There were plenty of voices condemning it, and more importantly, nobody was defending it. There was no purpose or cause for a kol koreh or anything else.
Frankly, it wasn’t an issue that was related to the chareidi tzibbur. It was carried out by people who we know don’t listen to the gedolim, and was not sympathized with by anyone who does listen to the gedolim. We’ve been battling these sikrikim forever–they don’t care what we say.
Frankly, it wasn’t an issue that was related to the chareidi tzibbur. It was carried out by people who we know don’t listen to the gedolim, and was not sympathized with by anyone who does listen to the gedolim. We’ve been battling these sikrikim forever–they don’t care what we say.
How about kicking their kids out of the schools and kicking them out of every shul.
People did not defend it, but they didnt declared these people Reshaim like they do with many Dati Leumi Rabbis either.
Someone either sells to them or rents to them in RMS. Declare it assur to rent them an aparetment or sell them an apartment. I am sure if some Anti-religious Chiloni wanted to rent an apartment in RMS there would be mass upheval not to rent to them
Popa: Many Rabbonim have tried many things over the centuries to be Mattir Mamzerim. Look at the T’shuvos. We do everything possible to Mattir them. Rav Goren’s issue was just that he went too far.
Sure. Do you really want us to get into the business of kicking people out of shul who we don’t agree with? Because somehow I think you won’t like that result.
And of course people declared them reshaim. Go back and read the CR from then. What was I saying? Blazes, what was even Joseph saying? Go read the forums on b’chadrei chareidim (I haven’t, but I’m confident you’ll find the majority voices condemning, and the minority will be those lunatics, who presumably are more represented on the internet, as we know that lunatics gravitate to discussion boards on the internet.)
Sam:
His issue was not that he took it too far, but that he took it too far and ignored the fact that he was standing on his own against the whole world and against people much greater than he.
But that is not what I was criticizing here. I was criticizing that he did it in a political way; it looks as if he did it in order to win the chief rabbinate election. He ran on it as his campaign.
zdad:
“The GOP recently comissioned a report and why they lost. The haredim would be wise to act similary although not much research is given.”
It’s really not that complicated: Bennet allied with Lapid, making it impossible for Netanyahu to form a coalition including the Chareidim. Case closed.
“Surely you and excommunicatre and throw the children out of school of Sikirim who spit and taunt 8 year old girls.”
The Chareidim are not one homogenous group, and the extremists have their own shuls, schools, etc. The people spitting on little girls are the same one spraying “Shteinman = Kook” graffiti in Meah Shearim/Ramat Bais Shemesh (apparently, “Kook” is the biggest insult they can think of). These people are the “Open Orthodoxy” of the Chareidi world; there’s really not much that can be done about them.
“You dont win friends when you call people Goyim, Haters of Torah etc who do not agree with you. Especially when their views are certainly within Halachic boundaries”
That I do agree with. The Chareidim need to come across as less belligerent if they want to make long-term friends.
yichusdik:
“talmidim and kollel learners reach heights of dveykus and amilus in Torah learning, and then get in a tank or a jeep and protect Jewish lives. They aren’t in bnei brak.”
Yeah, in Bnei Brak they just learn all day. Not sure why you seem to think that that’s inferior to learning and serving.
“It is the opportunity we have to demonstrate to the eibishter that we can be a complete people, not a collection of individuals doing individual mitzvos.”
Personally, I’d rather be an individual who observes Torah u’Mitzvos than be part of a “complete people” who do not accept upon themselves the yoke of Torah observance. But apparently, I can only speak for myself.
It is an egregious, yet smug and self satisfying lie to insist that the creation and continued existence of the State of Israel has solved all of our problems, and now all we have to do is sing kumbaya together.
“forgive me for seeing the ikveso demeshicho”
I agree that current events, what with us returning to both our land and to Torah study en masse, is probably (and hopefully) ikvisa di’mishicha. But that doesn’t whitewash the Medina’s rather mixed record towards Torah and those who observe it.
If the Charedim never issued Siruvs or Charedim, you would have a point, but they do it all the time for other lesser offenses.
In fact one of the issues that has been brought up is the Charedi Chief Rabbnis issues too many Siruvs
It’s really not that complicated: Bennet allied with Lapid, making it impossible for Netanyahu to form a coalition including the Chareidim. Case closed.
You missed the point why did Bennet feel he could make an alliance with Lapid instead of the charedi parties without destroying his own party. In Israel MK’s can leave their party and join other parties or their own party , It happens all the time.
It seems the Dati Leumi in israel would rather be with Chilonim than Charedim. HONESTLY ask yourself why. Saying they are Goyim and Hate torah is not truthful, The Dati Leumi are religious
If the Charedim never issued Siruvs or Charedim, you would have a point, but they do it all the time for other lesser offenses.
I think the point I was trying to make is that they issue announcements to people who listen to them; not to people who don’t listen to them.
As far as the chief rabbinate, I have no idea what they do or don’t do. Nor do I really care.
zdad:
“It seems the Dati Leumi in israel would rather be with Chilonim than Charedim. HONESTLY ask yourself why.”
To be brutally honest, I think it’s because Bennet, and the left-wing D”L community in general, have more in common with the chillonim than the Chareidim, both socially and ideology. They were finally forced to choose between the religious and the Zionist, and their choice speaks volumes about their true priorities. They are Zionists first, religious second.
Avi K:
“Kanoi, I don’t know where you live but b”H I have lived in Israel for 25 years and I know people who work even though they have not done the Army for various reasons (too old when they came, medical reasons etc.).”
Could be. But if somebody doesn’t serve because he is learning, he is not allowed to work.
rebdoniel:
“Torat Yisrael, Medinat Yisrael, Am Yisrael.”
See, now that scares me. You seem to be equating the importance of a secular state with an at best mixed record of behavior towards Torah and those who observe it to the importance of both the existence Hashem’s eternal Torah and the existence of Klal Yisroel, Hashem’s chosen people. Besides being completely and ridiculously untrue, that is highly problematic, to say the least.
Maybe you dont hear what I am saying
The Sikirim curse and spit at 8 year olds, The Charedi leadership says these people are not really one of us, they are reshaim who wont listen to what we say .
The in the next sentence they will yell and scream about the Goyim and Torah haters who discrimate against true jews because they feel they should work
There is nothing inconsistent about that. Of course we complain when people are doing things to us.
Let’s put things in perspective here. Once, one crazy extremist spit at a 8 year old girl. Besides for the fact that these people are a negligible extremist faction/cult, let’s not make it sound like this is something that even they do everyday. It happened, the media went crazy, not one “Chareidi leader” said anything to support or condone it, and that was the end of it.
Compare that to a political party, representing the entire D”L community, controlling over tenth of the government, deciding it wants to join the anti-religious faction in forcing their ideals down the throats of the entire Chareidi community, forcing the Chareidim to do what they have long held was prohibited.
Can you really not see why the Chareidi leadership would feel a need to respond to one and not the other?
Its one thing to complain , Its quite another to call them goyim , dogs and other names.
Its certainly fair to say that we disagree on the draft , Good torah jews do not go to the draft and we belive we should not be drafted
However its very different to say Those Anti-Semtic Goyish Dogs want to draft true torah jews
The Haredim can leave whenever they want. Nobody is holding them hostage. Just make sure the door doesn’t hit them on the way out.
Those that don’t believe in the Medina must go. They’re too great a liability to assume responsibility for.
Park Heights Avenue and Avenue J and Route 59 are open for them.
The gemara says that those who toil erev shabbat eat on shabbat. You don’t get something for nothing. You have no right to live in and milk a country you do nothing to contribute to.
The Haredim can leave whenever they want. Nobody is holding them hostage. Just make sure the door doesn’t hit them on the way out.
We should leave? How about the tzionim and their erev rav can leave and go to Uganda.
to: ‘The Haredim can leave whenever they want. Nobody is holding them hostage. Just make sure the door doesn’t hit them on the way out. “
1. The Hareidim were there first. Before the zionists. Before the Arabs. Before the Greeks and Romans.Being a bunch of religious fanatics with weird ideas on halacha, we were chased out of what is now Iraq about 4000 years ago.
2.What is the basis of the zionist claim to Eretz Yisrael?. Zionists have lived in Israel for barely over a century. Compare that to the Americans who have been in their land for 400 years, or the English who arrived 1500 years ago, or the Palestinians who arrived 1400 years if you ignore the DNA evidence that they aren’t really Arabs and are a mixture of Jewish hilonim (a.k.a. mityavanim), Greek and Romans. Based on DNA, most Jews are only partly over middle eastern ancestry, and that’s concentrated on the male line – there were apparently many more female converts in ancient times but they were convereted based on good old fashioned hareidi halachas. As of the 19th century, very few Jews spoke Hebrew except for hareidi fanatics who learned in Hebrew, rather than Latin or Arabic as did normal westerners. Except for a few hareidim, few Jews wanted to live in Israel (and it wasn’t the Arabs who kept us away, if fact they welcomed Jews back when the defeated the Romans – probably figured anyone who hates Romans can’t be all bad).
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