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oomis: NO IT’S NOT SEMANTICS
you mamash don’t get it.
it all boils down to the ages at which point boys and girls start dating and who they date.
that is NOT determined by HIM nor is it decreed by HIM.
Why do you insist that HE created the probelm.
Let’s take responsibility for our actions, and then we can hope to solve it going further…
We decided when boys should begin dating and thus we decided that there shouldn’t be enough boys for the girls.
For the same reason WE are capable or solving the tragedy…
let’s get to work…
(and really, it is not by choice, much of the time – they are sometimes pushed into it before they are ready)
Well, that’s not Hashem’s doing, it’s the doing of those pushing them to get married before they’re ready – also human bechirah.
If you’re right that girls are being pushed into getting married before they’re ready, then advocating shidduchim with “older girls”
would be beneficial anyhow.
DY, not THAT much older!
It’s very difficult to dialogue with someone who can only see one part of a picture – his part. AZ, I did not, do not, and will not be likely to agree with you OR the NASI project, even after reading your extensive, thorough posts. But I truly wish you hatzlacha, because I actually DO believe you are sincere, if misguided in your belief, and I am in favor of seeing successful shidduchim being made. I do not really believe in the long run this initiative WILL be helpful, because it is very elitist in its upfront requirement for big bucks, that many people do NOT have. So basically ONLY the girls whose PHD (papa has dough)comes through, will ever be able to take advantage of this so-called initiative. In my opinion, the initiative has been removed from everyone else.
do what the old satmar rebbe did send the men to work after a month in kollel. and promise a dira and support and then you pay 2 months of rent and then tell the couple support yourself ich hub mer nisht in a giten tug marry them when they are 19. from my age in yeshiva 1 bucher left from 250
DY, not THAT much older!
I’m not sure how much older you thought I meant.
I should clarify that NASI does not seem to be advocating literally encouraging girls to wait to get married, but obviously if the 22 and 23 year olds are focused on, it would lead to fewer 19 year olds getting married.
Rc,
Boys need to come home earlier from israel.
Mathematically, that should help.
RYs need to own up to this crisis by imposing takanos
You were right that takanos are difficult to implement. There’s enough negativity towards programs that are purely voluntary; imagine the backlash if R”Y tried to impose their will by force!
that mothers of boys respond in a reasonable amount of time.
If the lack of timely response is causing the boys to put their dating on hold, then you’re right to associate it with the disparity in numbers. If, however, there is no immediate answer because the boy is already busy with someone else, I don’t see what there is to do about it – there’s no point in a boy (or his mother) giving a definite “no” if there is a possibility that at some point he’ll want to meet her.
There is a way to close the gap that the R”Y of some yeshivos could implement – the post E.Y. yeshivos could limit acceptance to bochurim under a certain age, which would “force” them to return from E.Y. sooner. This is actually implementable, but many factors would have to go into such a decision.
yoelyfromwilli, I love that!
BUT the Litvish Kollel guys have it too good- commitment of years of support by a wife and inlaws, and the pick of a wife from hundreds of beautiful wealthy professional girls. Guys are in no rush to get married, they get it all when theyre 29+ as well.
Hashem Yerachem on the girls. With all this suffering, theyre urged to pay loads of money to get special attention of Shadchanim, so that they can grab a chair in Musical Chairs for themselves, as if they are undesirables, who otherwise have a low likelihood of marrying.
DY & RC: The yeshivos believe that the longer a boy is in Beis Medrash, the better. They will not suggest that thye boys get married earlier (Call it a conspiracy theory, if you will. I call it their interpetation of the Gemorah Keddushin.) 😉
The one solution that I have heard that could work would be selectivly extending “the freezer” for Lakewood boys, to extend the period for younger girls exclusivly. I don’t expect that to happen, though.
mss: You imply as if the NASI Project begins and ends with this new program.
This is not thier first nor their last. This specific program is simply one piece of the puzzle.
For the record this specific program is far more beneficial to the girls who are not from wealthy families than it is to the girls who “come from money”.
For the record #2: MSS to you accept that the primary cause of the shidduch crisis is age gap (and therefore the solution lie in alleviating that) or you not accept that premise.
MSS: “guy are in no rush to get married”, yet the data suggests that te vast vast majority of them get married realatively quickly…. hmmmmm
It will a far more productive dialogue if you showed you hand on this question.
RC: go for it, and your suggested method of implementation is……
AZ,
RC: go for it, and your suggested method of implementation is……
Rc pointed out that (s)he feels it can’t be implemented when (s)he said, “here is [my solution] although i know it cant be implemented”.
Solutions that can’t be implemented are a dime a dozen. A few years back there was a ad in the paper laying out 10 ideas that would solve the crisis.
oh yeah the idea mentioned in this thread were in that ad as well….
I thought the purpose of this thread was to come up with practical ideas that could be implemented…
come to think of it….
has anyone other than the NASI Project done anything in a practical sense to alleviate the situation???
just saying…..
has anyone other than the NASI Project done anything in a practical sense to alleviate the situation???
Gateways, in all fairness.
My solutions are practical and implementable. The problem just has to become worse before those with the power to implement them see the need to do so.
Gateways, in all fairness.
What have they done?
GAW: Go implement them and keep us posted, or go bring it to the attention of the powers that be….
AZ:
We have discussed this in previous threads. I thought NASI was also working towards getting boys to date younger?
DY: I don’t know what happened to my response. Check out Gateways Connections.
GAW- They are, what makes you think that they aren’t???
As i’ve posted numberouls times. This new program isn’t the first thing they’ve done, and it’s not the last. Its not even the most important. IT’s simply a piece in a big puzzle.
The big prize is the necessary structural changes. Hopefully one day that will happen.
btw i’m curiouls what should i see by gateways connections, other than a group of shadchanim (some on salaries some volunteers), of which there are numbeous such organizations Kesher, shhefa links, binyan, yu conncets to name a few off the top of my head.
Is Gateways doing something specific regarding the age gap that i missed or have they indentified some other root casue of the crisis that they are out to address? Please educate me, i’m very very interested.
rc- “Nasi non helpful shadchanim”
1. there is no such thing as a nasi shadchan unless you are reffering to the shadhcanim who in the last few weeks joined this new program. Prior to this there never existed a concept of a nasi shadchan as nasi isn’t a group of shadchanim. As such i’m not quite sure how you pass judgment on something that isn’t even active.
2. It seems like you still fail to understand why why why the girls are at a disadvantage. Until you undersatnd that, there’s little chance for you to understand why closing the age gap is helpful. Getting back to shadchanim faster won’t help an iota. It is the equivalent of playing the music faster in this cruel game of musical chairs.
3. something IS very seriously wrong. when that gets fixed, most of the other problems in the shidduch system will get fixed as well.
rc: “(meaning they no more have guys than girls; mothers do)”
Perhaps i’m missing something, but what does that sentence mean?
As an aside, NASI hasn’t doesn’t and isn’t hiring any shadchanim. Shadchanim who elect to be part of this program are welcome to redd shidduchim to anyone they want whether the girl is a participant in this program or not.
I’m not sure i understnad your point.
If your poiont is that as a result of this program many more shadchanim will pay muc more attention to young women who are 22 and up…
yeah that’s the primary goal of the progam and in the big picture that would be a very positive developement.
Halvai it should be so succesful
The big prize is the necessary structural changes. Hopefully one day that will happen.
That is what BPT, RC, myself & others are talking about. The big “structural change” is the Roshei Yeshiva getting the students to date younger, even though it may hurt their own bottom line.
May the time come B’Karov.
As far as Gateways, they have a program in which a shaddchan is assigned to a specific community (similar to an idea you also had, IIRC), and works on the girls in the community. It gives the older girls more attention they would not be getting otherwise (such as a face to face interview). It’s almost like your “list”, but instead of the girls paying in, the community pays in. Either way more specific attention is given to girls that would otherwise be left out.
GAW: In what way is the gateways program structured to help the older girls.
I’d love to hear?
has anyone other than the NASI Project done anything in a practical sense to alleviate the situation??? (question)
Gateways, in all fairness. (answer)
A nechtiger tug!
I know of a number of amazing girls who made the trip from far distances to meet Gateways Shadchanim, got interviewed, and have never been called back by them with as much as one name.
let s all agree on one thing..Throwing money at this problem will not solve it.
I’ll agree when and if it fails. Until then, I’d give it a try.
why dont we open a forum right here on YWN as anonymous as possible, and make shidduchim.
Anonymous shidduchim don’t work. The boy and girl have to meet.
Anyhow, the premise is wrong. If the problem were merely too many older singles, more shadchanim would be the proper solution. Since there’s a disparity, though, with more older girls than boys, the proper solution would have to address that.
rc..i agree.
and I hav an idea how it could be done..
rc,
why dont we open a forum right here on YWN as anonymous as possible, and make shidduchim.
I love that idea!!! Here on YW or anywhere else. Starting as a free service in the beginning and then if/when successful charging a small fee. Huge successes often start with dreams that to many seem impossible to ever take off.
I wonder why I ahve not heard any Gadol saying that the s’char mitzvah of making a shidduch for an older single (girl OR guy) would be greater in Olam Haba than for those easier to make younger shidduchim (lifum tz’arah agrah). Do you think anyone would be motivated based on THAT reward, rather than the monetary one in Olam Hazeh?
Being a professional shadchan i must tell the people .Most shiduchim are made through family,friends .Coming to a shadchan be prepared to have patience ,we get so many names that it is very hard to speak to every one.It is not that we are ignoring any one it is just that their is only so much one person can do in one day.If anyone has any questions for me ,please ask and i will try to reply.I just had to take a break from my day.
Besuros tovos
Ommis,
I wonder why I have not heard any Gadol saying that the s’char mitzvah of making a shidduch for an older single (girl OR guy) would be greater in Olam Haba than for those easier to make younger shidduchim (lifum tz’arah agrah).
From the letter signed by 70 R”Y:
“In addition, shadchanim should work primarily for girls who are age twenty and above. Shadchanim who go further and assist older girls will merit ??? ???? ?? ?????.”
AZ posted the entire letter here:
If you've read "NASI Project Responds", have you changed your mind?
As far as why the girls more than the guys, that is pretty clearly addressed in the letter.
A nechtiger tug!
I know of a number of amazing girls who made the trip from far distances to meet Gateways Shadchanim, got interviewed, and have never been called back by them with as much as one name.
So do I. But that is not to say it doesn’t help some.
AZ: By giving more attention to girls in a community. If they are older, then at least someone knows about them. I agree it is not a solution, but it does something.
If they are older, then at least someone knows about them.
Couldn’t the same thing be said about younger girls as well?
was this thread not supposed to be for “mothers of girls”, as apposed to “ppl on NASI’s payroll”
yahud, was this thread not supposed to be for “mothers of girls”, as apposed to “ppl on NASI’s payroll”
I agree. Perhaps we ought to start a thread:
Chizzuk and tips for parents of girls who dont want to join NASI’s new initiative, and dont want to chew it over and over and over ad nauseum or even be reminded of it once.
I think we’re in a Sakana matzav already (see below) and only Gedolim can advise, perhaps allowing and enabling by organizing and providing the “Who What When and Where” for older singles to meet on their own, or semi supervised, with the same interest and commitment as when planning Siumei Shas. It can be done.
I see some frustrated older single girls going towards what they think are greener pastures, and we dont want that. Its heartbreaking for all.
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