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When our sons were going out we had 20 or 30 resumes in our inboxes.
When our first daughter started dating we got nothin! It was like culture shock.
So we did our Hishtadlus: We took our daughter to three or four different Shadchanim in different neighboring cities and states, and we spread the word amongst our friends that our daughter was in the Parsha.
Six months, eight months – Nothin! One call, she goes out with a disaster, and comes home in tears asking why we put her through that. Oy!
In desperation, I went to our Rov and asked him what we’re doing wrong. His answer – “You’re doing everything exactly right. You did your Hishtadlus, and now Daven with Kavonoh, say Tehillim. But now it’s time to have Bitachon and let the Yosheiv U’Mezaveig Zivuggim do His part. Don’t tread on Hashem’s job.”
So my wife and I stopped fretting.
Guess what – three weeks later we get a call from a friend about a nephew of theirs and our daughter is engaged. B”H.
Without wanting to sound overly Frum or pompous, maybe the Shidduch crisis is being caused by a lack of Bitachon. Of course we have to make our Hishtadlus, but if we go overboard (Nasi?) and we enter the realm where it’s Hashem’s job, nothing is going to happen. Hashem will say, “Oh, you think you can do My job? Go ahead – but it’s harder than Kriyas Yam Suf, which you can’t do!”
There IS a Zivug for everyone. Bas Kol Yotzai V’Omer Ploni L’Plonis…” It’s not just a saying – it’s a fact!
But each of us must find the balance between Hishtadlus and Bitachon. If we correctly strike that balance, I really believe the Shidduch crisis will go away.
HI eliezer.
Great post!
: D
Eliezer:
I wonder why Organizations like Bonei Olam, Yad Eliezer,, Rccs etc. etc. don’t take the cop out route of “why tread on hashems plans”.
After all Hashem decrees who should rachaman litzlan be sick, poor, have infertility issues.
To be clear: on the individual/micro level, ABSOLUTELY you are correct.
On the macro/communal level, you could not be more wrong.
Your statment
“There IS a Zivug for everyone. Bas Kol Yotzai V’Omer Ploni L’Plonis…” It’s not just a saying – it’s a fact!”
Indicates that four+ years on and you still don’t get it….
Hashem did NOT decree that boys should begin dating at 23 and girls at 19.
He allowed us to mess up.
Please don’t blame HIM for our mess ups, and please don’t expect him to do a miracle when it is within our ability to rectify our mistakes.
NASI is focused on the macro and it behooves the community to do anything and everything they can to help alleviate this crisis. If you don’t support the specific tactics that a specific project is employing, by all means, work at it from a different angel.
To suggest that we do nothing and “have bitachon” that is on fake bitachon on yenems chesbon and a chazar treif hashkafa.
That is done after any and all avenues of effort have been expended on others behalf.
For ones self you can have bitachon, for others you must do do do do do (especially when it’s a biderech hateva sitation that is so easily rectifable).
AZ, I apprciate your reply.
However, I guess we can debate quite a few points…
1. Poverty and sickness (including infertility)ARE indeed communal responsibilities. Since time immemorial there have been Frum Tzedakah organizations taking care of Anyim, and Bikur Cholim organizations taking care of the sick, and we are commanded to seek out a medical attention to enth degree to save lives. That’s not to say that we don’t have to have Bitachon also in these areas, but these communal issues have always been cummunally attended to, and this is our Mesorah.
2. You quote me as saying “To suggest that we do nothing and “have bitachon” that is on fake bitachon on yenems chesbon and a chazar treif hashkafa,” is so far from what I said. I specifically said that we must do our Hishtadlus, we must seek out Shadchanim, and we must spread the word. We should keep on top of things and be aware.
I only question, after that, how much more?
And since when did Shidduchim become a “communal” endeavor. 50 years ago and 100 years ago there were plenty of Bikur Cholim organizations and Tzedaka organizations, but there were no Nasi projects and no communal Shidduch groups – at least none that I can find in any of the history books of Gedolim that I’ve read.
It would therefore seem to imply that this issue is a modern day “crisis” and we have to ask ourselves, how did it come about?
3. You write, “Please don’t blame HIM for our mess ups.” I Chas V’Shalom never ever implied such a thing. Quite the contrary, I speculate – and I stress speculate – that it may be OUR mess up by overstepping our Hishtadlus obligations.
4. I would continue to disagree with you that we need a “communal” initiative. I AGREE that each of us must do, do, do, everything we can for each other, and to pass on every lead, and every possibility – I just speculate that perhaps we are putting too much stock in our own efforts in an area where clearly – from Chazal – and historically – we have to let Hashem do His part.
B’Chavod.
I have nesver either called shadchanim..
I married off # children so far..
I only received 2 suggestions for my 20 year old son, so far
and I am totally not worried..
The time does come..
Eliezer:
I will repeat a familiar qoute of einstein
Insanity is to do the same thing again and again and expect different results.
you would like for there to be no communal effort and no effort at large to deal with a indentified cause of the shidduch crisis. Let every person fend for themselves and wish the problem away….
Hey wait isn’t that what we were doing when we got ourselves into this mess?
Why do you think that by going back to that method will solve it?
(as an aside, i assume you would like to not only shut down the NASI Project, but all the other wonderful projects going on such as communites who “gasp” hire a shadchan to assist their local young women (LA, CHicago, Detroit, Baltimore, and others), as well as numerous active organziations
Binyan Adei Ad
Kesher,
Sheefa Links,
Yu Connects,
Gateways
SYAS
and many others….
I mean in Europe they didn’t do that????
now for some specific points:
I will argue, that our religion and mesorah require of us, that ANY and EVERY need that is indentified and can be alleviated or solved through individual or communal activism should be pursued (of course under the guidance of proper people who are of the stature to give such guidance.)
People and commuities who sit back and don’t do what THEY could have done will have to face the music after 120.
THAT my friend is what Hashem expects of us, and that is the mesorah of our gedolim and that is why our gedolim involved themselves in many areas that they would have much preffered not to be involved in.
Judaism is NOT a copycat religion. Before launching dor yeshorim they didn’t research whether in Europe they did genetic testing. What they did do is seek guidance from leaders as to whether such activism is approprioate based on the knowledge they had and the capabilites to act.
ditto the bais yackov movement, ditto hatzlah, ditto rccs, ditto bonei olam, ditto ditto ditto.
I’m not sure where in shulchan aruch it says that prior to helping allieviated a massive communal problem, one is supposed to research whether such chesed scenarios ever previously presented themselves.
What i believe my friend is that you don’t like the specific action plan of a specific program.
You are entitled to your opinion, as were the people whe were against dor yeshorim, sara schinerer, haztzalah.
You may even be right, but please leave the mesorah argument out of it, and discuss the pertinent issues.
2. I’m not quite sure what “I speculate – and I stress speculate – that it may be OUR mess up by overstepping our Hishtadlus obligations.”
Are up specualting the shidduch difficulites are a result of peoples efforts to sovle the problem???
To be clear.
with regards to ones self, one must balance histadlus with bitachon.
With regards to hekping the next person you must try try try as if you are a non believer, and pray pray pray because only HE can accomplish anything.
It is a crisis because we make it a crisis. Obviously, girls and boys alike can have fingers being pointed at them, fingers of people saying, “You are too picky. Just settle and compromise.” Although this is wrong, it is partly true because young people (and sometimes even old people) don’t realize that the person you are dating is almost never the actual person you marry.
Basically, we must stop looking at every nitty-gritty characteristic of other people (and families!), and realize that there is no such thing as a crisis in our religion. These “parshas” that we are leining now just show what Hashem can do for a REAL crisis. We must have bitachon and stop worrying so much, even when it is much easier said than done.
Why did Hashem answer Moshe, “Now you see what I will do to the Egyptians?” That didn’t answer Moshe’s question which was why was he sent if Pharoh just got worse. The answer is that Hashem was telling Moshe, “Why do you think that Pharoh didnt get worse till now? Didn’t he hate the Jews. The answer is that till now my children couldn’t handle it. Now that you went to them and told them that they will be freed (as it says that they believed in Moshe), now they have enough bitachon to outlast the harsher decrees.” In other words, Hashem never gives us a nisayon we can’t handle.
In today’s times, when kochi v’oitzem yodi is all over the place, it is very possible that this “shidduch crisis” is a nisayon of bitachon. Although in Mitzrayim the bitachon made worse conditions, those conditions made the Geulah come quicker and maybe we can do that today as well. Hatzlacha to all those in the “shidduch crisis,” myself included (I’m not too nervous yet, but I’m a boy).
Zukes: HOw i wish you were right…. unfortanetly you are terrible misguided.
Please tell the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of not so young women who are having a terrible time in shidduchim and can’t get a date, that it’s a crisis becasue we make it a crisis.
Last I checked, having massive numbers of older single girls facing the reality that many of them will never marry is a TRAGEDY and not a crisis and certainly not a figment of the imagination.
We have warped priorities and hashkafos as it relates to shidduchim. That is the true tragedy and a real crisis.
Apy,
Do you think anyone has better priorities than we do?
AZ, you have proved my point. I quote you as saying, “older single girls facing the reality that many of them will never marry” is the biggest lack of Bitachon and Apikorsus.
NEVER MARRY?! Every single Yid has a Bashert. Upon every single Yiddishe Neshama a Bas Kol goes out and says who they are going to marry.
Hashem Himself is Yoshev U’Mezaveg Zivugim.
The only response to you is “Hayad Hashem Tiktzar?” Are you saying Hashem can’t do it or make it right?
This is the very point I’m making.
Elizer,
Please tell that to the hundreds and hundreds of girls who are well past 30 and birerech hateva they can’t all get married…
Hashem allows us to mess up, and that’s exactly what we have done. Pretneding it’s not so will not make it go away.
I never said they couldn’t have gotten married in the past, i simply stated that in the present reality it’s not going to happen. (unless by some miracle 24 year old guys start marrying 34 year old young women.)
HASHEM got it right, but we messed up and are continuing to do so, though b’chasdei hashem some changes have begun to take root.
Biderech Hateva as long as the cherem dirabeinu gershoom is in effect, if there are 100 guys and 150 girls then 50 can’t get married.
It wasn’t Hashem who created this inequity of numbers, it’s us….
AZ, no one is saying to stop the Hishtadlus. From the outset I have said that we have a Chiyuv to make our Hishtadlus.
But you keep saying things like, “in the present reality it’s not going to happen,” and those are the statements that bother me most.
There is no such thing as a “reality” that Hashem can’t deal with. Whether it be a handful of Chashmonaoim against a much larger group of enemies (Rabim BYad Me’atim), whether it be the fall of Haman, whether it be one night worth of Shemen burning for 8 days, or whether it be 100 boys for 150 girls…
There is nothing “tevadik” about Shidduchim even when things go smoothly. But if you keep making statements like, “B’Drech Hateva…can’t get married,” then you are sadly, severely lacking in Bitachon.
Again, most definately, make the Hishtadlus – just don’t lose Bitachon as you have.
I wish you well.
B’Chavod.
It wasn’t Hashem who created this inequity of numbers, it’s us….
“
But it IS Hashem who created the 50 more girls than boys. Are you seriously blaming this issue on Rabbeinu Gershom? Hashem ALLOWED men to have more than one wife, but the Torah clearly shows it is NOT the ideal situation.
“Do you think anyone has better priorities than we do?”
No, but that doesnt make ours right. Or normal.
Can we please stop using the terms boy/girl once your past 30 you are no longer a boy/girl thank you.
If the problem is that there are more girls than boys, why do we not start breeding more boys? But on a serious note, I agree with oomis1105. It’s not just that there are no programs or any kind of functions for singles to meet, before they are ‘old’, if a boy and girl (20 years old) would meet and get married, most people would start spreading rumors and think this couple is off the derech. Girls in seminary should be able to go to ‘Ben Yehuda’ on Motzai Shabbos and it should be encouraged. Maybe they will meet someone nice and want to get married. And if it is encouraged by the schools, the girls wont feel like they are hiding anything or doing anything wrong and they can speak to their rebbitzins about it. When its done behind the backs of the schools and parents, that is when bad can come out of it. The psychology of teens that are meeting without shadchunim is obviously that they are commiting a cardinal sin since it is so frowned upon. If it would be permitted and not looked downly upon, it can be very kosher and effective.
oomis:
“It was Hashem who created 50 more girls than boy”
um, not it wasn’t….
Rc:
please clarify which of the 13 basic principles of jewsih faith the following eihter of the following two statments violate
1. there are more jewish children in 1st grade than in 5th grade
2. Girls begin dating at 19, boys at 22/23
To the best of my knowledge neither of those statements constitute Kefira. these two statements dictate tha unless we change something we will continue to have hundreds and hundreds of older single girls.
Since it’s unlikely that we will change the bracha of a growing population, the most reasonable course of action is to work on the second statment and see what could be done about that.
Is this kefira????
Eliezer: I have lost bitachon??? How would you know that?? I have simply stated we need to get to work fast and hard because to sit back and expect it to sovle itslef is begeder relying on a neis which we are not allowed to do. If we allow the present situation to continue without making changes then the present reality will b’derech hateva continue.
If you ask, Is it solvable? the anser is ABSOLUTELY YES YES YES. But it won’t happen by itself….. Many solutions have been proposed in this vary forum and much progress has already been made, despite constant objection at every step of the way from misguided people who would prefer to let things just fix themselves….
“It was Hashem who created 50 more girls than boy” (oomis)
um, not it wasn’t….” (AZ)
REALLY? I am sure that is news to Hashem.
I thought this thread was about finding solutions not assigning blame.
I’m sure that it’s not….
HE didn’t create any more girls than boys (actually, there are slightly more jewish males born each year than jewish females).
WE created the 100/150 not HIM…
“2. Girls begin dating at 19, boys at 22/23”
Let boys begin dating at 19 too.
Let’s talk about being fat and smoking again. That is always more interesting.
Why does everyone always think that being fat is “externals.” Fat is always inside you, not outside you. It is actually part of you.
Middos are external. Middos is the actions you do–they are not actually part of you.
I think we should care more about things that are part of you, than individual actions or transient feelings. That is what I will teach my sons. And daughters. (And to run around in shul: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/why-im-going-to-let-my-kids-run-around-in-shul)
Goq: Absolutely!
We can only begin to implement solutions once we clearly understand the nature of the problem.
If the problem is lack of bitachon, lack of teffilah then that were our efforts should be.
If the problem is asystemic problem that created a inequity of numbers then that’s where our efforts shold be.
Therefore understanind the root cause is critical to solving the problem, NOT in order to play the blame game.
APY: Go for it. Hatzlacha in making it happen en masse…
WE created the 100/150 not HIM… “
You know, that is just silly. Either Hashem creates life or He does not. If there are more females than males (and it would seem that if al pi halacha a man could have taken more than one wife 2,000 years ago, that there had to be an excess of women then, as well), then it is not our doing. neither is it any wrongdoing kivyachol by Hashem. It just IS what it is.
oomis1105:
Hashem creates life
Hashem did not create more female lives than males lives
WE created a shidduch situation were there are more females dating than males.
and this is wrongdoing on our part (albeit unintentaional, but allowing it to continue is inexcusable.
Let me know if you’d like a explanation
There’s a comment regarding girls from either There’s a comment regarding girls from either families that cannot support a son in law learning or from a broken home in another thread I’d like to discuss here
The comment goes as follows “Of course they made a choice. They choose to look for something extremely rare (a boy who is a “yeshivish” Ben Torah who does not want to be supported, or a boy that can not reject out of hand due to his huge “list”). Blame that on society that pushes boys to be supported.
Then their parents (or the girls themselves) reject the boy they are actually looking for (a Ben Torah who is working) because he is working or YU type.”
how much of this statement do you believe to be true?
With all the recent comments regarding NASI maybee the problem is not a numbers problem at all rather we are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.
I know that there are bais yaakov girls that have gone out with YU types that have been forced to break up because of parents involvement. There is an entire Jewish Orthodox community out there who are frum shomer shabbos and learn torah and I have to wonder are we limiting our girls?
how much of this statement do you believe to be true?
Since it sounds like something that I would say, most of it 🙂
However, even those who would support are having issues. The multitude of support requirements also only come due to the imbalance that exists (supply & demand).
It is yet another reason why (IMHO, Lulei D’Mistafina) I believe some of the “Roshei Yeshiva” are happy with the causes of the crisis (even if they wish there was no crisis itself). They are therefore not willing to do what it takes to resolve the issues on a Macro level.
It is yet another reason why (IMHO, Lulei D’Mistafina) I believe some of the “Roshei Yeshiva” are happy with the causes of the crisis (even if they wish there was no crisis itself).
What do you mean happy with the “causes of” the crisis? What causes?
Do you mean they are generally happy with the ages that guys and girls start to date and think it is a good an appropriate age to start dating? Well, I should hope so.
Do you mean they are generally happy with the ages that guys and girls start to date and think it is a good an appropriate age to start dating? Well, I should hope so.
As one example, this:
midwesterner
Member
For the record, one of my roshei yeshiva was approached to sign as one of the original 70 and refused. He holds that girls should marry as close as possible to the spiritual high they are on when returning home from seminary in Israel. The longer they are back in America, the more their hashkafos get diluted. Remember they are not in Yeshiva like the bochurim. Most of them are out in the world, and being exposed to religiously compromising influences. So I can assure you, he does not hold of this one either.
To add another: The RY are happy that girls are in greater supply than boys. This causes the price of boys to go up, and more boys can force support, which allows them to learn longer (and stay out of college while they are in Beis Medrash, knowing that they will not need to support themselves to get married.
As I have said before, those & other “causes” may be the correct Derech for Klal Yisroel. That is for a Gadol to decide, not me.
Well, for what it’s worth:
My rosh yeshiva was concerned about the numbers crisis.
He also felt that we were getting married at about the correct age, and didn’t want us to date younger- he was concerned about the divorce crisis.
I never once heard him say he was happy there was a shidduch crisis because it helped our bargaining position for money.
I don’t think he was referring to the age in which people start dating at all. The cause of the crises is that every girl coming out of sem wants to marry a learning boy and all boys are told to stay in learning forever and to look for a father in law who can support them. Tthis translates to that all boys (boys moms?) want a shver that can give money to keep them in learning with a comfortable lifestyle. which means more boys are marrying wealthy girls whose parents can support them which makes the rosh yeshivas happy because more boys than ever are staying in learning, and girls who’s fathers do not have the capabilities for support are not getting redt shidduchim. these very same girls should be looking elsewhere for shidduchim but instead many are unfortunately becoming older singles because the boys will not give them a yes and they refuse to think out of the box and realize the type of guys they’ve been told to marry their entire life are not interested in them.
Yes of course there are exceptions, but this is most certainly a man made problem by narrowing our community (kinda a bad idea huh) which can be fixed. it’s not a numbers problem.
The cause of the crises is that every girl coming out of sem wants to marry a learning boy and all boys are told to stay in learning forever and to look for a father in law who can support them.
And the only reason why the boys can ask is because of the crisis. Without it, the parents of the girls would tell them to stick it to Sam Hill. Now they have no choice if they want their daughter to get married. I personally know of a number of cases. If I were a Posek (which I am not), I would say it is Karov to a ????????.
PBA: Does your Rosh Yeshiva have any ideas as per how to solve the numbers problem?
oomis1105:
Hashem creates life
Hashem did not create more female lives than males lives…”
It seems evident that He did, if there are so many of them. But feel free to believe otherwise, if it makes you feel you are right. I don’t have to be.
Let me know if you’d like a explanation”
Never mind. It’s not necessary. Let’s just agree to disagree.
PBA: Does your Rosh Yeshiva have any ideas as per how to solve the numbers problem?
Not that he told us. He certainly did not encourage us to date younger because of it.
Instead of looking at the way things are done today, let’s look back in our history. In the shtetel in Poland, the parents betrothed their children at a young age based on family background. (I think most of our families come from these marriages.) In other words, let the parents start the “shidduchim process” before the girls/boys come home from seminary/yeshiva. The reason why the percentage of marriages is higher in the chassidishe world is because the parents are the one in charge of finding/meeting the boys for their daughters and vice versa. (That, by the way, can save the girls a lot of embarrassment…) I think too much is left in the hands of single boys/girls these days and more action is required from parents/relatives. Instead of running to shadchanim, seek our your relatives who have known you for longer than 20 minutes. What happened to those old friends of grandpa and grandma? Let’s find out about their children. Let’s look close to home and follow the traditions of our ancestors. May we merit to continue the legacy of our families to the next generation.
I was being facetious.
If your program is successful, I just wonder what all the girls aged 20-22 will do with themselves? Most will have finished their year in seminary, their 14 month degree from any of the degree mills that abound, and still be 12-18 months away from marriage. Graduate school? A job in the city? Some new beis medrash program for females?
Just curious what the Rabbonim who endorsed this program suggest and approve these girls do?
Oomis,
“Hashem did not create more female lives than males lives…”
It seems evident that He did, if there are so many of them.
There aren’t more females than males, there are more females who have chosen to enter the “shidduch scene” than there are males who have entered the scene.
That reality is a human choice – the societal decision to have the more populous age group of one gender (19-20 year old girls) begin to seek their spouses at the same time as a less populated group – the 22-23 tear old boys.
Just curious what the Rabbonim who endorsed this program suggest and approve these girls do?
Probably the same they are recommending for the already plentiful group of unmarried 20-22 year old females.
Which is?
Which is?
Which is different for each individual. Some of these rabbonim allow young women go to college, some probably don’t.
Many young women teach, many take other jobs.
Any way you slice many many young women do not get married immediately. In fact there is a strong argument to be made that the donwside that some suggest of girls not getting married immedaiteyl (if there is one) is actually mitigated if it becomes more commonplace.
so long as the expectation is that every girl get married at 19, a young woman at 20/21 may be made to feel (and it’s totally ridiculous) like an outcast.
if/when it’s socially accepted for young women to not get married first thing off the boat, then the stregnth in numbers will actually be beneficial to the individuals who dont’ gett married immediately.
To solve crisis we don’t need wholesale changes, simly a shift of the percentages, If (and these numbers are absolutely arbitraty) at present 60% of young women get married at 19, and some changes take hold to 40% get married at 19, that will be very very beneficial on the macro level.
whatever the 40% are doing in the present system, the 60% (or maybe more) will do in the new system.
What do you think of this?
Let the boys, who will be learning their whole lives, start dating at 18 (ben shmonah esrei lechuppah), and the girls, who will be supporting their large families and don’t have the obligation to marry early, get good serious graduate degrees and be earning decent parnassahs (maybe already owning homes) before they start dating. That would take them to late 20’s. Then the girls (sorry- women) would with Hashem’s help be able to pay their children’s tuitions, etc., and the boys could sit and learn with yishuv hadaas.
and your suggested method of implementation is…….
There aren’t more females than males, there are more females who have chosen to enter the “shidduch scene” than there are males who have entered the scene.”
OK, we have a semantic issue here. If there are MORE females who have chosen to enter the Shidduch scene (and really, it is not by choice, much of the time – they are sometimes pushed into it before they are ready), then Hashem has still created more females than males WHO ARE READY AND AVAILABLE to be getting married. It matters little to me WHY there are so many more, but clearly there are, because even when the males ARE ready, by that time, MORE females have entered the scene as well.
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