Frumster???

Volvie: I wasn’t being judgmental of shaddchanim in general, I specifically said some of them are good. I continue to use the good ones but frankly I’ve had better luck with shidduchim suggested by friends and family.

He did not suggest frumster and I didn’t ask him about it b/c I’m not really interested in using it. I’m not comfortable approaching girls and asking them out directly, that’s not how I was brought up. However I think the attitude that guys and girls who try to meet people on their own (for marriage purposes) are doing something wrong, is detrimental and a big part of the shidduch “crisis”.

And that’s the way my 4 married children did it.

“And that is the proper way to bring up Bnei Yisroel. So your parents brought you up quite well. 🙂 “

I agree, my parents did a good job, thanks. However, I do think that once we reach the age that we’re ready for marriage, there should be more open communication between boys and girls. My parents would not have a problem with me asking a girl out directly, so long as I wasn’t asking simply b/c I thought she was good looking.

SJS, I thought it was the other way around on Tu B’Av.

As to approaching girls directly – we are not talking about picking them up in bars, for goodness sakes! There are many venues through which girls and boys could meet each other in a protected and halachically acceptable environment. They can talk to each other, get to know each other a bit, and then decided if they are interested in going out together, which would happen by the boy (horrors!) asking for the girl’s phone number, getting it, and calling her up. yes, yes, no, no.If one is uncomfortable with doing that, then an alternative approach must be used, but it is not fair to think that doing it that way or getting a number from a friend and calling the girl, indicates an improper upbringing. Rather it indicates that a young man has been brought up to be an independent and pro-active individual, which is a good thing, IMO.

If you start allowing girls to exchange their phone numbers with guys, it will lead to indecency. No, not in every case; maybe not even in most cases. But it will happen, and that is why the rabbonim shlita are resolutely and vigorously opposed to it.

And if you allow people to talk on the telephone, it will lead to lashon hara. No, not in every case; maybe not even in most cases. But it will happen, and that is why the rabbonim shlita are resolutely and vigorously opposed to it.

Wait, what… they’re not? 🙂

The Wolf (who had the audacity to look up the phone number of a girl he was interested in.)

Volvie, with all due respect to you (and I do respect your hashkafa, I am not being sarcastic), I could not disagree with you more. Ehrliche frum girls in the decades of the 50s through the 90s met their zivugim in this way, and it led not to indeceny, but to marriage. Yes, there will always R”L be people who behave inappropriately, and by that I mean indecently. The fact that ‘some” people might be nichshal dos not mean we throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Many, many shidduchim were made b’tznius and with the most honorable of intentions, through people meeting at Shul youth groups, Bnei Akiva, informal gatherings, etc. And btw, you don’t “allow” girls to give their numbers to someone whom they have met in a wholesome environment. If they are old enough to be ready for marriage, they are old enough to give a guy their number without needing special permission. That being said, if in your particular circles it is not ever done that way, then by all means keep to the status quo, and may all the single girls and fellows find their proper zivugim ASAP.

That’s why we are blessed with having our Gedolei Yisroel shlita make these decisions of yea or nay on these serious issues. Most people who engage in bungee jumping come out okay. Yet I doubt if asked any godol will tell you its okay to do.

Actually indecency is potentially far worse than a driving accident.

But to answer your question, exchanging phone numbers is worse than bungee jumping. Since we can agree (I assume) that banning the latter is correct, the former follows.

Volvie, it is likewise clear that married women should not be out in the work force either, because it could lead to them meeting guys who are more interesting, educated, and financially solvent than their husbands. I think we are over-thinking here.

I am very VERY old-fashioned, Volvie, and I believe ideally a woman should stay home and do the job for which Hashem created us, which is to raised the next generation of frum kids (she, and not her nanny or housekeeper, no matter how good they are with kids). I do not apologize for my belief in this regard. I raised five terrific kids (so I am told they are, and quite frequently), and together with my husband I believe we instilled the right values and middos in them. Not one single child of mine grew up to be self-serving, “es kumpt tzu mir” types, or off the derech, but rather are baalei chessed, genuinely caring, kind-hearted, and loving, devoted to their family and friends, and people with whom I enjoy spending my time.

While I do not feel this is not also possible in a home where the mother works outside, I have seen a great deal of neglectful behavior in those circumstances, children who call their maids “mommy,” and kids who are not watched properly and run wild wherever they go. I cannot believe this is what Hashem wants of us in the final an analysis. And no, I am not sufficiently financially comfortable (SO FAR FROM THAT), that I could afford to stay home. My husband and I made that decision for the benefit of our children, while they were in their formative years and until all were in school full-time. I then took flexible part-time work both a few hours by day and a few hours at night (when my husband was home), so as to be an available parent. Not every woman can do so in the present economically-challenging times in which we find ourselves, but I have been talking about an ideal situation, after all.

Actually indecency is potentially far worse than a driving accident.

Huh? A driving accident could kill not only the driver, but several innocent people as well. Indecency could lead to what? (Okay, we all know what it could lead to, but is that worse than killing people?)

A driving accident could kill not only the driver, but several innocent people as well. Indecency could lead to what? (Okay, we all know what it could lead to, but is that worse than killing people?)

Indecency can lead to spiritual death (of multiple people) which is worse than physical death.

Absolutely it can. And has. Many times unfortunately. It can, G-d forbid, lead one (or more) completely astray.

And they don’t always do teshuva most unfortunately. Some have been lost forever.

It isn’t worth the risk, however large the risk is the results can be catastrophic.