“Frum” therapist

n0, yes, I am paraphrasing mussar suggestions. Maybe we have so many mental cases referred to doctors because we dont work before at earlier stages.

n0m: I don’t see any coherent rational in your comment why if our communities had firm expectations that male therapists would only service males and that female therapists would only service females, how that would entail any significant loss, while its benefits, whatever their limitations, are clear.

N0m: What’s your comment have to do with my point or address it in any way? There will be good and not good therapists regardless if they service both genders or only one gender. But if they service only their own gender, they’ll have less opportunity to sin or have Yichud.

Your example of the male therapist specializing in troubled girls makes my case. If the community wouldn’t tolerate opposite gender therapists, he would have been denied the ability to have inappropriately acted as you described.

Here’s a shocking thought – assuming (and accepting, which some commentators on here won’t) there is a desparate need for therapists in the frum community
Would you rather you/your child go to a frum therapist with the correct hashkofo….? Surely yes?

> frum therapist with the correct hashkofo

I think if someone knows what the corect hashkofo is, this is already a worrying sign.

I would rather first have shomer Torah therapists give talks to communities and teachers and train community leaders in correct handling of children and seeing warning signs to call therapists. This could reduce number of cases requiring intervention.

N0m: in response to the recent CW tragedy, just in the last week alone I’ve seen many choshuve and prominent Rabbonim and poskim insist that people should only use therapist as the same gender of themselves or their child.

The potential for יחוד and inappropriate relationships should suggest that it isnt a “frum” profession.

Get a door with a window. Problem solved.

The Wolf

If the therapist cannot control themselves when the patient is vulnerable, then he is not a good therapist.

Having a yetzer hora doesn’t mean one isn’t a good therapist.

Dear The Wolf,

If it does not make the patient think twice [There is nobody to look through the window.] It does not change anything. If it does, than it will hinder the therapy. See above.

N0m: The Torah prohibits Yichud. The Torah doesn’t give an exception for therapists/patients to have Yichud.

We should not have so many therapists. Maybe let’s have having less problems. Raise your hand if your school teachers have training in psychology, if you as a parent (or your parents) had some training. And results of any follow-up evaluation on how teacher/parent performs.

If it does not make the patient think twice [There is nobody to look through the window.] It does not change anything. If it does, than it will hinder the therapy. See above.

Fair enough. However, unless I’m mistaken (and please feel free to correct me), most therapy of this type is strictly verbal (i.e. the patient sits in a chair and simply talks or follows simple instructions from the therapist). As such, as long as you don’t have people actively listening at the door, it wouldn’t appear like anything other than two people having a conversation.

The Wolf

N0m: An unlocked door that everyone knows you may not enter anyways, barring an emergency, does not alleviate the fact that it is still Yichud. Even if there’s someone in the waiting room. And if there’s no one else there, you’re doubly in violation.

N0m: Very many do.

An unlocked door in a semi public place would be a sufficient deterrent, so long as there a need for privacy.

Not sure what is the chidush you guys are discussing. Yichud between a doctor and a patient is not a new thing and solutions exist. Maybe we need kashrus organizations to expand here and certify the doctor offices.

quoting, for example, (Lubavich) R Dubov Laws of Yichud ch. 10, see for more there
In general, a man should try to visit a male doctor, and a woman, a female doctor. However, if no doctor of the same gender is available, it is permitted to be treated by a doctor of the opposite gender.

meeting takes place in a public office or clinic during office hours
door to the doctor’s office is open slightly or closed but not locked, and other members of staff may enter at any time.
Tzitz Eliezer Vol. 6:40:12 writes that a woman may enter a doctor’s office for an examination if the door is closed but not locked (as long as there are three people in the waiting room, or else a man and his wife), for then it is considered a Pesach Posuach Lirshus Horabim. However, Nishmas Avraham 22:1 quotes Rabbi S. Z. Auerbach zt’l: “Rav Auerbach zt’l also told me that as long as a nurse, patient or any other person can at any time enter the examination room, whether as part of his or her job or whether in error, there is no transgression of Yichud.” The implication is that this Yichud situation is permissible even if there is nobody in the waiting room at the time, since the appointment is within office hours and someone may enter at any moment, hence creating a Pesach Posuach. This is also evident from the following Responsa from Igros Moshe Even HoEzer Vol. 4:65:1 who writes: “As regards a woman who needs to be examined by a doctor while undressed (even though there is another person in another room of the doctor’s offices, and it is not customary for anyone to enter his examination room, nevertheless,) it is a daily occurrence that even the wives of Torah scholars go alone to the doctor and are secluded with him in his office. This lenient behavior has become widespread because the doctor, be he a Jew or a non-Jew, is intent on his work, removing from him any lustful feelings. Even when he finishes his examination he cannot spend extra time with her, for there are other patients whom he has scheduled for the following time slot. And even if the next patient has not yet arrived, he fears that he or she may arrive soon. If she is the last patient for the day and he knows that no other patients are expected, one may rely on the presence of an employee in his office, for should he spend more than the usual amount of time with the patient, this will arouse suspicion. The doctor, Jew or non-Jew, will be careful that no suspicion is cast on his name that might harm his practice. However, she cannot be permitted to be secluded with him when there is no one else in the office and when no other patient is expected, and her son, daughter or husband must accompany her to such an appointment. But, if she did go to the appointment alone at such a time and transgressed the prohibition of Yichud, she is not forbidden to her husband, for Yichud alone is not sufficient to forbid a woman to her husband.” See also Minchas Ish 18:4.
Shevet Halevi (Shiurei Shevet Halevi Hilchos Niddah p. 278, Responsa Vol. 4:167) summarizes the guidelines of visitation by women to medical personnel:

She should minimize as much as possible examination by male personnel.
Wherever possible, she should request a female doctor/nurse.
When a female doctor is not available or the male doctor is better qualified, it is permitted for her to be examined by a male.
Under no circumstances may a woman be examined by any medical personnel who are known to be promiscuous.
She should only visit a doctor during office hours when others are present in the office.
Whenever possible, she should be accompanied by another woman.
The doctor should leave the door of the office slightly ajar, or at least closed but not locked.
Non-observant medical personnel may advise a woman to do something in violation of halachah. Therefore, women should always take medical advice in conjunction with a competent Rav.
She should not engage in prolonged conversation or joke with the doctor, but rather just focus on the medical issue at hand.
As regards her husband accompanying her to the office, Shevet Halevi writes that if the husband will have to wait in a waiting room full of women (who may be prutzos), then this accompaniment for the purpose of mitigating the Yichud situation may be detrimental in terms of tznius. (However, it seems to this author that if the visit is to a private clinic in the doctor’s home or private offices it is preferable for her husband to attend.)

or a husband?

“and other members of staff may enter at any time.”

That could work by a physical doctor. But a therapist generally don’t allow anyone to enter the room with them patient in therapy.

In fact, many of the above guidelines work with a physician but are inapplicable by a therapists where often there usually isn’t even anyone in the waiting room. And even if there is a secretary or someone, they know they cannot enter the room with the therapist and the patient.

So we are back to square one: there appears to be no heter for a therapist and patient to have Yichud. Often there’s no one else in the waiting room; and even if there is a secretary or another patient, everyone is aware that no one may enter the closed (even if not locked) door with the therapist and opposite gender patient.

TLIK: That seems reasonable. Especially if the pop-in always occurs at a random time during every (opposite gender) session.

I’d still say it much preferable to use a same gender therapist. But if that’s impossible, the setup you describe seems sufficient.

Unfortunately I don’t think most therapists use what your friend does.

ujm said “Jewish male therapists should only take male clients, if individual privacy is required for sessions, and Jewish female therapists should only accept female clients.”

Ever heard of COUPLES COUNSELING??? By default, half the couple is male, the other half is female, and they are seeing ONE THERAPIST… So who should be the therapist? Or should they have two together (husband and wife OBVIOUSLY!)

ujm-many times couples in counseling may have separate sessions with the therapist in conjunction with their couples sessions. So yes, individual. Sorry I did not make that more clear.

Joseph:

A number of charedi therapists, both licensed and unlicensed, have been convicted of abuse. Punctilious attention to Hilchos Yichud could have prevented some of these atrocities but not all. One infamous charedi monster abused boys before he fled to Israel. Another infamous charedi monster abused girls before she fled to Israel.