Frum Jews and College

Mikehall, while I have a lot of respect for Rabbi Tendler, to the Yeshiva World, he is an extremely controversial figure. He also frequently (and publically) disagrees with R’ Elyashiv.

Cedarhurst, where I went to college, there was no antisemitism. There weren’t classes that were breeding grounds for atheism,secularism, militantism, anachorism, and rampant sexual immorality. They had a wide variety of liberal arts classes to take and most of them would pass the “kosher” test. Unless you think European History is immoral to learn?

Maybe its because it was mainly an engineering/technical school.

It was also a great place for frum men because classes were mainly male (I was frequently the only woman in the room), there was an active Jewish Student Union where mincha was available. Professors were very understanding of Jewish holidays. Frequently, I would work with department heads to make sure that classes for majors weren’t scheduled late on friday afternoon.

Sure, if you want to go to a major party school, you can find tons of pritzus. But if you research wise you can choose the right place to get both a good education and not have to worry about your list.

Several people have used the word “anachorism” [sic]. What is the actual word you mean?

im guessing anarchism was meant

Mikehall, he isn’t controversial to me. I grew up in his shul 😀

But to the Yeshiva World, he IS controversial. Yes, Rabbi Tendler learned with Rav Moshe Feinstein and yes he approved of the shidduch.

It doesn’t change the fact that Rabbi Tendler often publicly disagrees with R’ Elyashiv. For the most part, the Yeshiva World holds R’ Elyashiv in much higher regard than Rabbi Tendler.

I wonder if it means they didn’t go to college 🙂

Wolf said,

. . .”anachronism” (i.e. the idea that we should go back in time and place futuristic objects in the past. . .

This sounds like the plot of a television show called “Star Trek,” assuming that is, that one had a television. Oh wait, I forgot, you can watch it on the internet.

What about the idea that not everyone is a gadol, can be a gadol or will ever get to this coveted status ever? I am not being pessimistic but I try to think of myself as a realist. There are those boys out there who may be “great boys” but just are not “gadol” quality. They may not have any disability or behavioral problem- not everyone is cut out to learn. What are those boys to do? Are they to become janitors?

torahis1- how can you dare say that you don’t rely on what they did before they were gedolim? Is there some sort of award ceremony or pronouncement made “so and so is now “A Gadol”? What is the point you decide someone is a gadol? When you start agreeing with what they say?

i heard the tape a long time ago

i think the name was something like Rabbi Feur

if this isnt right maybe it will jog your memeory

GAW, Thank you.

Do you read English-language books, just so I know to whom I am talking? 😉

“For the most part, the Yeshiva World holds R’ Elyashiv in much higher regard than Rabbi Tendler. “

In the shiurim I attend I hear more halachic opinions attributed to R’Tendler than R’Elyashiv.

“It is common knowledge that there is a strong dispute between Rabbi Soloveithchik and many of the Charedi gedolim of the time.”

It is common knowledge that Rav Soloveitchik was very respected by the charedi gedolim, who made him a member of the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah while he was still in his 30s. He was particularly close to R’Hutner who was his classmate at the University of Berlin, to the Lubavicher Rebbe whom he had also met in Berlin, and to R’Kotler who had him speak at the first Chinuch Atzmai fundraising dinner.

(It should be noted that Rav Soloveitchik’s Zionism was very different from that of Rav Kook.)

“today are breeding grounds of atheism, secularism, militantism, anachorism, and rampant sexual immorality”

Other than promiscuity, I found none of that when I attended Harvard and Johns Hopkins. And I’m not sure that the promiscuity was any greater than in non-college environments among young adults at the same age who are not living at home.

Look, the point that I was trying to make until now and continue to try to make is that there is a strong dichotomy between many of the Rabbis mentioned in this thread and the majority of what we call Charedi gedolim.

The fact is that certain talmidei chachamim of the previous generation held views that were not widely accepted by the rest of the gedolim. While this did not necessarily affect the high regards that they were given as talmidei chachamim it did preclude their acceptance as leaders of the Charedi people.

So you find today that Rav Kook is primarily associated with the charda”l hesder yeshivahs, despite his previously strong relationship with many Charedi leaders. Rav Soloveitchik is generally associated with the modern-Orthodox YU, despite his great-grandfather, grandfather, father, and brothers having been considered among the preeminent leaders of Charedim.

This being so, the views and actions of these talmidei chachamim and those who have held similar to them are irrelevant to chareidim because they are contrary to those that are and have been counted among the leaders of the Charedi public.

I understand that my views here might seem extreme, perhaps because I have been in E”Y for a number of years already and the borders are much stronger here. However, I think for the most part what I have said in this post generally reflects the views of mainstream Charedi Yeshivos such as Mir, Chain Berlin, Lakewood, Ponovezh etc.

I am not the PR officer for these yeshivos though, this is just a reflection of my understanding of the hashkafa I was taught.

charliehall: are you related to mikehall 12345678

Speech from Rav Elya Svei:

It says further, in Targum Yonoson, that one should not be a false witness. I want to stop here. In public life here in Brooklyn, there is false testimony. We have merited, through blood and sweat and with the Almighty’s help, to establish large Yeshivos for the boys and Bais Yaakovs for the girls. And these schools produced students of whom all can be proud. But then someone comes and says that they are still incomplete. When the boys go out of the Yeshiva, they are still not finished — they still need more studies: they still have to go to “Touro College” to be well-rounded. That is the biggest false testimony against the Torah. The boys do not need such “completeness”.

One is not allowed to be friends with them! One is not allowed to be partners with them! What will be with our children? From where will our great Torah leaders come? From Touro College they will not come! And mothers of Gedolei Torah will also not come from Touro College, because the Gemorrah says that to merit children who will become Gedolei Yisroel, one has to have modesty. And modesty cannot be acquired in Touro College!

The Chasam Sofer in Parshas Beshalach states clearly that certain secular knowledge is useful for learning certain Torah topics, such as cow anatomy being useful for shechitah, and arithmetic for Eruvin and Sukkah. But that before we embark on obtaining secular knowledge – and of course that means only to the extent that it is useful for our Torah studies – we must first fill ourselves with Torah-only knowledge. After we are strong in Torah, only then can we move to acquire the useful secular knowledge that we need for our Torah studies.

He quotes the Rambam, who he describes as “the father of philosophy” in our religion, in Hilchos Yesodei HaTorah, stating that a person may not learn philosophy until after he has “filled his stomach” with Shas and Poskim, which are the things, and only the things, that bring us Olam Habah. Then he quotes the Rashba, saying that there is a cherem against learning any secular studies if you are under age 25! The he quotes the Gemora in Brachos “Keep your children away from science” (higayon, as some meforshim translate it), noting that the Gemora is directing its prohibition at “your children”, but not at the adults, for adults, who are already advanced in Torah knowledge, need some secular knowledge, such as cow biology (I keep emphasizing that so that we do not make the error of thinking that the secular knowledge that we need is a college education). But it is dangerous for us to pursue it until we are armed and ready with a Torah foundation. This is because someone with a Torah perspective looks at the value and culture of of secular studies differently than does someone ignorant of Torah. And we do want to get the proper perspective.

It’s kind of like firemen putting out a fire. They have to (a) dress in their heat-resistant protective outfits, and (b) run into the fire and put it out. But of course, they have to do it in the right order.

And that is indeed what it boils down to – do we value the Torah’s standards of education more than that of the secular world or vice versa? The choice is simple: All the secular “education” that you get will be useless to you in the next world. There, they will not ask you if you know how many US presidents were re-elected in history, or whether you are familiar with the policies of Chairman Mao, or if you know how to program a computer. They will bring a Sefer Torah scroll to you and ask “do you know what it says in here?” The more you know of that, the more you will be considered “educated”. The less you know, the more you will be considered ignorant. So the question is – do I want to be educated on this world or on the next?

And please note, there is no minimum threshold for the amount of Torah you are obligated to know. The rule is: more is better; less is worse. And the difference between just a little more and a little less is staggering. As the Vilna Gaon points out, one word of Torah knowledge gives you more holiness than an entire lifetime’s worth of doing other Mitzvos.

And here we thought that a secular education is expensive! Its much more expensive than you think – you can acquire it only at the expense of your time and effort that you could have been putting toward becoming educated in Olam Habah.

Two things, though. First, the prohibition is only to learn secular studies as a regular curriculum. To read about them occasionally in your spare time is permitted.

In Michtavim U’Maamaromim 5:533 (pg. 137) Rav Shach further writes that citing the success of those people who were able to achieve greatness in Torah despite their involvement in secular studies are the “ma’aseh satan” for using such examples will entice others to follow suit, only to be doomed.

The Yidden at the time of the churban had much better weapons at their disposal (such as the ability to levitate the city), if you read the Medrashim. They just didn’t help, since Hashem wanted them to lose.

If they had AK-47’s, the bullets would have just plopped out, with the next one complaining how hard it was to push out the first bullet.

For Heaven’s sake, it was only a joke. Ease up.

The Wolf

ofcourse:

The Shtaitel mentality of being Sameach b’Chelko, with bread and water and hand-me-downs, is no longer.

I cordially invite you to come visit the Land of Israel. Here you will be able to witness first hand in a number of communities such as geulah, meah shearim, mekor baruch, mattersdorf, unsdorf, kiryat sefer, beitar, sanhedriya, etc. many many MANY individuals- both native born Yerushalmis and born and bred Americans, doing EXACTLY this. I have a friend who is renting an apartment from a landlord who was raised in that same apartment with his 7 siblings. It has ONE BEDROOM the size of your bathroom.

Your statement sounds like the goyim who say the Torah is too hard to keep. Pas b’melach tuchal and sameach b’chelko are not laws of the Torah, but they are also not impossible to keep.

‘ people who were able to achieve greatness in Torah despite their involvement in secular studies are the “ma’aseh satan”‘

Rambam was the ma’aseh satan???? Well, I do recall that people did burn his books.

“it is dangerous for us to pursue it until we are armed and ready with a Torah foundation”

This may well be true! If you look at the many pre-20th century university-educated gedolim I have listed, every single one was a talmid chacham *prior* to embarking on university education. And

19 year olds are indeed very susceptible to the latest intellectual fads and will rationalize almost anything in an try to make it (incorrectly) fit into their worldview. That so many educated frum Jews espouse political and economic philosophies that owe more to Ayn Rand than to Moshe Rabbeinu is one example of this. I personally think most students would do well to wait before embarking on university studies.

However, it should also be pointed out that the YU/Touro/Bar Ilan models have clearly produced gedolim. For example, Rav Schachter and Rav Lichtenstein have undergraduate degrees from YU.

Yes, but I don’t know what that has to do with this thread.

It explains your above (and in other threads) “hashkofos”.

This may well be true! If you look at the many pre-20th century university-educated gedolim I have listed, every single one was a talmid chacham *prior* to embarking on university education.

Okay, so make sure all the college applicants are a Talmid Chochom already first, and we may be able to bridge much of our divide.