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The reason woman have tznius is so they dont make it harder for the men to fight the urge.
Aussie, I don’t believe thats true. Sure, its an added bonus, but tzniut for a woman herself.
You may be skeptical, so lets look at this. A man is required to have children. He CANNOT do it without a woman, yet a woman is in no way obligated to help him fulfill his mitzvah. Women are not obligated to get married and have children. True, most women WANT to do this, but its not an obligation.
I am happy that I can help men overcome their obstacles while I am doing my own mitzvah. But thats not WHY I am obligated in the mitzvah. Unless someone has a source that says tzniut is for men? I haev never heard it approached that way.
ames:
Wearing pants & sneakers under your skirt may be normal where you live & therefore Tzanuah. Without a location (please don’t give it:) there is no way to know.
aussieboy & SJS:
First prove that women have Tznius (Legabey other women). They do not (as long as they are not showing Ervah (lower) MB 75:8. Women only have Tznius OUTSIDE (R. E. Falk argues) due to Daas Moshe V’Yehudis, but no specific MITZVA per say (MB 75:10) to the best of my knowledge, or from what the MB seems to say (Of course there is a requirement to follow Da’as Moshe V’Yehudis). Men HAVE TO not look at women, either for Han’nah or while reading Shema (and the sort).
R. E. Falk says that women have to be Tzanuah indoors so that men who are inside will not be nichshal to make a brocha before them, but the mekor he brings (MB 75:10) says nothing of the sort. If anyone has a mekor….
Aussieboy, you said
“The reason woman have tznius is so they dont make it harder for the men to fight the urge. (No it was not put there because the girl is a bas yisroel who is like a princess and a princess is dignified.)”
Why do you say this is the reason for tznius?
pashuteh yid brings up good points.
also, i think that some of the males here are enjoying this whole discussion far too much. perhaps it should end here.
Thanks again, Delib. BTW, You never sent me my shadchanus gelt for making your shidduch here on YW about a year ago.
On the topic of dressing and the levush for men, I see they just closed the Chuck E Cheese thread (which I must bashfully admit I don’t know what that is, but it didn’t stop me from piping up with my two cents).
I wanted to make the following comment before things went sour and people started fighting.
Perhaps the reason why some people seem to have expressed negative reactions to the levush was because they are actually slightly embarrassed. Permit me to explain.
To everybody’s credit we all believe a yid must dress with dignity. I believe that is what lo shinu es malbusham means. However, here is where we differ. The pro-levush crowd believes that we dress with garments that were dignified in the 17th or 18th century, while the anti-levush crowd believes we must dress in garments that are dignified right now. They believe a Jew must alwayss look first class in the eyes of the world, not just the eyes of other heimisher yidden.
Having said that, consider the following: You are a nice person and invite homeless people regularly to your Shabbos table. One day you are meeting in a resturant with a prospective employer on a very important interview. you are dressed up in your best suit. In walks one of these homeless people who has a long scraggly beard, long unwashed hair and is in torn and tattered clothing. His hygiene leaves what to be desired, and he is holding a bottle of whiskey. He runs up to you and gives you a hug and asks, “How are your wife and kids? I really enjoyed being at your house last Saturday.”
Now, you cringe with embarrassment, and hope that this potential boss doesn’t think this friend reflects on you, and that you are also a drunkard. Now, while I have obviously exaggerated, I think you understand my point. There are some of us who not only believe the levush is not halachically required, but actually does more harm than good to our collective reputation. Why not dress first class by today’s standards, instead of first-class by now-obsolete standards?
Mods, could you please allow this post?
First class by today’s standards is a white shirt & dark suit (men). Just walk the streets of Manhattan. Anyone that’s a who’s who or is at least trying to look the part will be dressed in this formal attire. Now the hat is the only part left to argue about.
Areivim, you said
“First class by today’s standards is a white shirt & dark suit (men). Just walk the streets of Manhattan. Anyone that’s a who’s who or is at least trying to look the part will be dressed in this formal attire. Now the hat is the only part left to argue about.”
No it isnt, you will see people wearing dark suits and dress shirts of many assorted colors.
There is also no real argument that a black hat is NOT considerd normal, formal or proffesional attire nowadays, its just considerd wierd.
I’m talking real, respected, first class- not the imitation “new rich”.
000646, I think there a lot of people who wear really strange things these days, so I wonder how much attention it actually calls to a person.
~a~
anonymiss,
You are right, but if the point of wearing a hat is to look dignified you arnt really acommplishing that goal by wearing a black hat nowadays.
Areivim,
I am talking about what rich, succesfull and dignified people (such as Bill Gates, Michael Bloomberg, Presidents Bush and Obama ect. ect.) can be seen wearing nowadays and it is not only white shirts and black pants.
mod- I nominate this thread as ready to be put to sleep…
i think im getting creeped out that men are posting here.
ladies, if you wanna start a thread about tznius, start one for women only.
hopefullt the men will be mature enough to refrain from peeking at the thread.
Who ever heard of people trying to get a post shut down in a forum? its a little nutty. Beacon, if you dont like the conversation some group is having go to a different post. How is it your business or your right to decide what others can talk about.
Did this thread switch titles with the “Hat and jacket at chuck-E-cheese” thread?
Personally, I can make an argument that Rabbanim should wear black hats, as it is part of their uniform, just like policemen wear caps, etc. But when I see little 8th grade boys at recess in black pants and white shirts playing ball, I wonder what this is really all about.
At any rate, the American chareidi levush is rather mild, but the chassidic levush I have to admit, causes me some embarrassment. If I were talking to a non-Jew, and a chassidic person in full levush came up and started to ask me something in a broken English, I probably would feel some embarrassment. Maybe I am a bad person.
It is this idea that some groups seem to believe that there is bdavka a mitzvah to give off an appearance of being primitive, and not being able to speak the language of the country, not learning anything secular after Bar-Mitzvah, not even basic algebra, dressing in such a different manner, that I suppose I would not be honest if I didn’t say it doesn’t cause me some level of discomfort. It is not that I don’t love every yid, but is this really what the RBSH wants us to appear like in the eyes of the world? Does this fulfill Ki hi chochmaschem uvinaschem l’eini hoamim? Doesn’t gemara say they would not appoint somebody to the Sanhedrin unless he knew 70 languages? Also, I think that the gemara said that Rebbe Yehudah Hanassi hitiru lo lsaper kumi, they allowed him to get a real goyishe haircut, since he had to interact with govt officials.
Anyway, there is certainly a maylah of separating ourselves from bad influences, but somehow it has to be balanced with the need for us to maintain a dignified image.
The thing about the charei “uniform” is that its just like many other groups who often dress in a similar manner to show that they are part of the larger group. Its part of the human condition. People need to feel like they belong. Most groups develop a similar mode of dress for that reason.
For example hipsters in Williumsburg wear thick black glasses and skinny jeans, and all the punks in NYU die their hair pink or blue. academics wear tweed jackets with elbow patches. Students at Harvard wear harvard t-shirts and students at Brown U wear brown t-shirst. Even modern orthodox who do wear normal clothes still wear a unifying item, which is the kippa serugah.
Clothing is about in many ways a way to identify a persons alligance. The problem is when it becomes more than that. If modern orthodox want to wear white yalmukas to show they are are part of that group thats all its about, they don’t prescribe any special meaning or value to it. That many frum jews have turned their clthing into a “frum” thing and a spiritual thing, I feel, is well beyond what reasonable and rational. Its actually just part of the large issu that is plaging Jews today which is the focus on externals and unimportnats things in yehadus, instead on the interal and true halachas. The same reason why a frum jew could make his family nuts trying to be extra makpid with gobroktz and and the same time sit at the table and speak loshon hara, or any other possible thing is the same reason why clothing has become such a big issue. Its just people focusing on the wrong thing.
Pashuteh Yid – the reason the sanhedrin members had to know 70 languages was because eidus has to be heard directly and not thru an interpreter, it has nothing to do with their need to have a certain level of education.
TB, Yosef hatazadik also knew many languages, and if he sounded like a total shlemiel, I doubt anyone would have taken his eitzahs seriously.
Also the Sanhedrin had to know a lot of math for the cheshbonos of kiddush hachodesh. I believe I read in one sefer (possibly the Even Shleima on the GRA) that one who is too simple (temimusdig) to be matzliach in the secular world, will be too temimusdig to be matzliach in milchemsa shel Torah.
Many years ago, we lost a lot of frum kids because all the Rebbes had just come over from Europe and couldn’t speak a decent English and didn’t know about sports, etc. Then a generation of regular American, English-speaking role models emerged in chinuch, and many kids were very inspired to Shmiras Hamitzvos. Now it seems we are going back to European style, a generation later.
ames – LOL!!!!!!
Sure, why not? Is there any halacha that says girls are not allowed to accessorize with nice things? If there were, then NOBODY should ever wear nice REGULAR glass frames, much less sunglasses. They should all be plain, rimless frames, just the lenses.
Ames, I view them as jewelry for the eyes. Since we are allowed jewelry, there should be no reason NOT to allow them.
That being said, I think they look stupid on many people.
I’m assuming the sunglasses question is a joke. How about long earings? Necklaces? Bangles?
SJS, they look stupid on people when the style does not suit their face or they look like P.H. wanabes.
Why are long earings not tzanua? I never understood that. They don’t highlight any part of your body that should be covered. And they don’t call more attention to you than, say, a pair of shiny diamond studs.
Long earrings (IMHO) are fine. Are there flashy versions that call unwanted attention? Of course, but that doesnt mean its the long earrings in general that are the problems.
Edited just because I can LOL
I dont think its the long earrings per say, but what it usually comes along with. Like long, hair that is down and attracting, a floor length skirt maybe. It gives off a certain look.
Getting back to the original topic, those who were concerned might want to know that there is a frum dance game alternative that is similar to DDR and hooks up to your come computer! Information can be found here: StepItUp123.com
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