Frum English

The litvishe- sorry, people have got to learn to spell right, otherwise it shows of some lack in intelligence or education.

The Chassidishe, this isn’t the first error I’ve come across in publications or websites…yeah it irks me…oh well…

The frum newspapers and magazines used to to full of such errors, butit’s been a long time since I’ve seen such. Hamodea,Mishpacha and the Yated have very high standards. Since I no longer bother reading to Jewish Press I don’t know if they’ve improved.

smartcookie,

just a correction, it shows a lack of secular education. Equal to those that show up at a minyan to say kadish and hardly manage to get it right..

It’s not frum English. It’s just bad (or careless) English, as practiced by many or most English speakers, Jewish or not.

Here’s frum English: He has what to learn about writing a decent sentence.

Considering the prerequisital double helping of language skills that is commonplace in Jewish establishments of education, the sub standard writing abilities in religious circles is to be expected. It is however pretty harmless, as is mentioned above, communication is about conveying information so any attempts which meet that requirement are sufficient. Language evolves over time and at risk of incurring the wrath of Jewish logophiles worldwide, words erode with the melting brains of the generations. Words, in languages other than lashon hakodesh are defined by the way they are used and so, the faster the erroneous spellings of words spread, the faster they become commonplace and therefor correct. I’m not saying that the above is particularly brilliant, it’s far from it, but it conveyed the desired message and helped the erosion of the English language on its rapid descent to its guttural, monosyllabic and crude destination.

Bad spelling usually comes from lack of reading and writing skills. Additionally, today’s kids do most of their reading and writing via text im and email using internet slang and shorthand so they are ruining their ability to spell correctly. Its a mageifa. I force myself to spell words out in texting and online because I dont want to forget how to spell and write like a mensch.

What makes Longhand more correct than shorthand? it’s the simple evolution of language doing battle with the older generations propensity to cling to the rocks rooting them to the past to avoid the terrifying waves of the future. You’ll notice that despite your valiant efforts, this is a fight which you won’t win. Notice your relief at the fact that we no longer speak English like they did hundreds of years ago, no one speaks like Shakeapeare anymore. In fact someone who did would experience difficulty in being understood. Do you mean to suggest that the ‘proper’ English of today is more ‘mentchlich’ than the English of the days of yore? Surely not and so, you too appreciate the evolving nature of communication. The ubiquitous lamentations of the proud older generation is irrational and just arrogant. (not that I mean to suggest anything of the sort about you personally, I don’t even know if you are indeed older than I am) Do they also ‘force themselves’ to adhere to the mentchlich horse and cart over the mageifa of the modern day automobile? This has nothing to do with correctness or otherwise, it’s merely a fallacious belief that your education exceeds the so called education of the succeeding generation and so this condemnation of the way things have become. Once more, if a message is successful in delivering its intended content without causing any difficulty to the one who has to decipher it, it shouldt be problematic in any way.

mogold – In my opinion, there is a huge difference between someone who makes a simple typo and someone who lacks the fundamental skills to write a grammatically correct sentence.

Chassidishe – Keep preaching.

To Chasiddishe Gatesheader: If the writer to whom you object is not a native speaker of English, i.e., he was not born in an English-speaking country, and/or he has no formal education in the English language, we should give him/her a pass on his errors, even if it makes our eyes hurt. If, however, he/she is born in the US and educated in the US, his/her English skills are disgraceful. And if he/she was educated in a yeshiva or Jewish girls’ school, we should be alarmed that such expensive education gets such mediocre results.

The Chassidishe Gatesheader-

r u 4rel abt ur lst q?

English is the official language for more countries than any other language.

Face it. the US is the world leader in power, finance and influence.

TCG,

Here’s the link, but apparently it was not you.

Confiscating Shoes

Ironically, though, in your reply, you wrote, “If that is how write in your mother tongue”, omitting the word “you”.

No big deal, we all make mistakes (and the same applies to the “100’s of plains” error).

TO The Chassidishe Gatesheader.

I apoligize that I confused you with Goldesgreener who actualy wrote the typo I quoted in your name, sorry.

The fact is thata lot of frum people learn how to speak & write 3 languages from a very early age.

Hebrew

Yiddish

English

with the most effort being put into lerning the first 2, so English often is the 3rd language, so obviously we are not so proficient in the English language.

However despite the somewhat lower degree of using the english language,a lot of people have become very successful in business, and we all know of brilliant highly educated collage graduates who are penniless.

TCG: Girls’ schools do. BYBP has options of French, Spanish, Russian (and Yiddish :P), Manhattan High offers Mandarin, and my high school offered French (at the expense of Yiddish – they dropped the Yiddish class my freshman year).

I believe that a person must have a solid (it need not be articulate) command of one language. If they don’t, then they are incompetent. If they feel superior in a shaky command of several languages, then I would call them an idiot.

Did that help clarify things?

If they did, they would be more apologetic about their English, not less.

Why are you making this about English? Because it isn’t. It’s also not about me (or you).

Joseph: There is no need to be apologetic about not knowing a language. That is logically absurd.

However, when one is talking/writing/posting to an audience that speaks a specific language, and they cannot communicate effectively, and they are belligerently defensive and even proud of their ineptitude, then there is nothing to call them other than idiotic. And nothing short of disclaiming their proficiency in that language before their piece is going to make them look less like a blundering fool. Again, there is nothing wrong with not knowing something. But putting yourself in front of those who do and and proudly claiming ignorance is a good way to prove yourself impervious to knowledge of any kind.

Yes, that’s what I said.

And unless any given person is going to give some account for why they are trying to speak in a mutant language, then I will assume that they think it natural and defensible – which makes them an idiot.

Shall we go at this for another half a dozen rounds, or shall I let you make your scintillating rejoinder and leave it at that?

GARNER’S MODERN ENGLISH USAGE

PRONOUNS

D. Indefinite Pronouns: Number. Traditionally, indefinite pronouns (anybody, anyone, etcetera) have been considered invariably singular. Indeed, as the subject of a verb, each of those terms must be singular…

[deleted examples]

But, often, as in the following sentences [not shown], the sense undoubtedly carries the idea of plurality from an antecedent pronoun to a referent one…Try changing them to he, and you end up with deranged writing. SYNESIS dictates that logic trumps the strict rules of grammar with these words in transition…

[deleted examples]

Although everybody and everyone carry the strongest suggestions of plurality, the other indefinite pronouns are almost as natural antecedents with they and them. That’s because they has increasingly moved toward singular senses. (See SEXISM (B).) Disturbing though these developments may seem to purists, they’re irreversible. And nothing that a grammarian says will change them.

______

One thing you will learn if you pursue and interest in writing – in many cases the rules are sacrificed for good style. And that’s a rule.

But you have to look the thingamajig up in Garner’s or CMoS first. 😛

Spanish is practically useless for the vast majority of Americans. There are very few Spanish speakers in America that cannot communicate in English. And the few that are, let them learn English.

Yiddish, on the other hand, is very useful for a Jew. It is the international language of Ashkenazic Jewry. Go to Argentina or France or Israel and speak to your fellow Yid in Yiddish.

I could be wrong but here’s what I think – when someone displays a lack of skill in spelling or speaking, it doesn’t actually make them an idiot or take away credibility. There are two problems however: one is simply that if it’s really bad, people won’t understand what you’re trying to say. If it’s at that point, something should be done to bring it up to par.

The other problem is that unfortunately the metzius is that many people will view you as an idiot (which, in my humble opinion, stems from a craving to feel superior to others). If you don’t care how people look at you, fine. If you do, you should work on your skills.

Also, I feel that certain people here are being quite obviously self-conscious on this thread specifically, and making much greater efforts than usually to use bombastic speech and to sound sophisticated and “cultured.” That’s just the sense I get.

Lastly, I strongly agree with yitzchokM. This is a blog for crying out loud

Yiddish is useless for anyone. There is not reason anyone should learn it.

If you want to live in the USA, Learn English, There is no reason any jew should not learn english. Unfortunatly My great-grandfather never could learn english so I could not speak to him. I seriously doubt my mother has spoken yiddish in decades and it was her first language.

And frankly after seeing people here talk about it, I made it my business to listen more carefully to people who speak it now , and I understand it better than I realized. They do not speak proper yiddish today. Listen to proper yiddish and listen to what is spoken today and its not yiddish. I dont know what it is , but its not yiddish.

I have been to Paris, and I met some jews there who did not speak English, They were SEPHARDIM and they spoke Hebrew, I spoke to them just fine. If I really need to speak to another jew in a common laguage, More jews speak Hebrew than speak Yiddish, and in fact more jews speak ENGLISH than speak Yiddish.

Zdad,

Thanks for clarifying. You believe it is pointless to learn a language in which there are many shiurim. And which learning is done universally.

You try to prove some point, not sure what it is, by telling me about some story in Paris. You weren’t talking in learning. That’s for sure.

How’s your Spanish? The rest,basura.

And as far as what is proper Yiddish, Yiddish has always been an amalgam that included the local language. Ivrit is no more a real language with bits and pieces coming from other languages as well.

Perhaps you should analyze the real reason you have such hate for people who speak Yiddish.