- This topic has 139 replies, 29 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 5 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Can you repost a tldr version? Is hard to read the 5 words of tape buried in the insults.
Joseph
Im not sure if your question was addressed to me, but Id be happy to answer.
“To narrow the issue down, if I understand it correctly, the chillul Shabbos-doctor problem is mostly limited to their training in residency for about three years. Correct?”
not at all.Okay, partly.
The bottom line is there is a lot ov variability and the issues each face are different as well depending both on level of training and speciality.
With residency the problem is being the lowest on the totem pole. IT is the residents role todo much of the “scut work” as well as all the minutae. This is the biggest issue with Shabbos, since most if not all of these acts (paperwork, ordering non-essential medications like tylenol) are not pikuach nefesh. *
On the other hand Residency is also the easiest since there are several spots where a resident never has to go in on shabbos or Yom Tov ( there are other programs which while not guaranteeing a “Shomer shabbos spot” allow switching so the outcome is the same). I (and most of my frum collegues) had such a position I never carried a pager, phonelet alone went in on Shabbos or Yom Tov throughout residency.“Once they get their medical license and become a full fledged doctor, frum doctors can generally control their schedule. If they hang their own shingle out and open their own practice, they surely can set their own hours and days”
Yes though depends on specialty but generally coverage can be arranged on weekends (or at least half a weekend with the frum partner taking Sunday and the other one Shabbos)“. If they’re a specialist in a hospital, specialists can choose not to work weekends. (Other non-Jewish specialist can be the Saturday specialist.)”
Not always. When working for a hospital you are partly on the hospital’s schedule and most hospitals want specialists available 24/7. So it can be harder in this setting.
” An Emergency Room doctor will probably have problems taking off on Shabbos.”
not neccesarily, since Emergency Rooms are “shift work” and it is not that hard to arrange to avoid shifts Friday night/ shabbos day. In some ways this is easier than the aforementioned specialist who is expected to be available 24/7.
On the other hand, once out of residency the Specialist, internist, ED doc can generally delegate to Residents or PA’s have them do paperwork, ordering tylenol etc and only perform acts that actually save lives then write notes after shabbos l.
So while in some ways avoiding work might be harder post-residency avoiding melacha is easier.PBA
You claim Rav Akiva Eiger supports your view
My understanding of what I read is that a doctor has a middah of achvarius whereas hashem is always a rachamim
However, the doctor is following another gemarrah, the gemarrah that states that people born under a certain mazel with a natural tendency toward violence should become shochtim, doctors etc.
In other words, the person has no control over his ingrained middah, but does control how he uses it
I just find it interesting that you claim he is saying what you are saying.
I also find it interesting that you have a problem with doctors and not hatzalah for doing the same thing.
Please just come out and say the same points about hatzalah, or are you afraid of the backlash?Even if don’t bill for it?
That would take a lot of chutzpah for you to bill me for asking me a question.
PBA
“Can you repost a tldr version? Is hard to read the 5 words of tape buried in the insults.”ID be happy too:
IF you dont know what youare talking about there is no need to say anything. Not all Doctors have the same schedule and not all work on Shabbos (mutar or not)
(I have told you this no fewer than 5 times, for whatever reason though you still repeat your same falsehoods and portray yourself as some bar hachi)
This is the biggest issue with Shabbos, since most if not all of these acts (paperwork, ordering non-essential medications like tylenol) are not pikuach nefesh.
A lot of what is done is not for pikuach nefesh, it’s for eivah.
Emergency Room Doctors actually have one of the easiest times with Shabbos, because they are not on call when they are off. In fact its becoming more popular to become one because you have a regular shift (As opposed to an OBGYN where you can work all sorts of crazy hours)
If for example you are a Heart Specialist or OBGYN for example you need to be on call 24/7
Ubiquitin, a question. When someone enters medical school, is he guaranteed that he can, if he wishes to, avoid Shabbos shifts in internship and residency?
The main problem is the people who spent the best years of their lives in kollel thinking that they were going to become the Rashkebehag, and then didn’t get the shteller they imagined they would get, and are now inwardly bitter people sitting in their basement in their undershirt (take that either literally or figuratively) half the day writing deios to the coffee room. They think that just like the Rambam and the Vilna Gaon understood everything about the secular world from Torah, they do too, and therefore they think that they know everything about everything, from physics to medicine to law, when they really know very little about anything.
Ubiquition, I think we’re on the same page. You can feel free to keep on champing at the bit if you want.
Menchie, I distinguished from hatzala in my very first post on this thread. I don’t know why you are so anti hatzala, but you can always join ezras noshim if it’s itching you so much.
How are you even in the same book as ubiquitin?
Your distinction between Hatzala members and doctors was regarding the tzurah of Shabbos. He asked you regarding achzarius, and it’s a fair question.
Oh, you’re asking if the gemara applies to EMTs and medics? Let’s analyze.
Achzariyus: Maybe. Unclear. They don’t really do the same things doctors do.
Gaava: Unlikely.
Maharal: Unlikely.I guess I’m not sure. I’m not too big of a baal gaava to say I don’t know, unlike all you doctors and wanna be doctors on this thread (DY).
He was specifically asking about achzarius. You tell me: do Hatzala guys sometimes need to do things which cause pain?
That was not your original narrative anyhow. You started talking about Shabbos (which I agree is probably very difficult, though not impossible), but you quoted a gemara which has nothing to do with Shabbos.
So I pointed out that the gemara has nothing to do with your point, and you decided, I guess, that really you were talking about achzarius, and R’ Akiva Eiger backs you up.
Except that R’ Akiva Eiger said no such thing.
Mentch1 merely pointed out, correctly, that switching your narrative to one about achzarius shlugged up your whole chilluk between doctors and Hatzala members.
So now you’re trying to change the narrative to be about other pshatim in the gemara.
PBA
I am not against Hatzalah, I think they are malachim.
I am against your simplifying the nuances.
You asserted that doctors who take call on Shabbos are doing so for non emergency situations, I pointed out the logical flaw in that reasoning and made the comparison to Hatzalah. As I have pointed out already, a lot of daily calls don’t fall into pikuach nefesh for hatzalah. (I do have a problem with people calling Hatzalah on Shabbos for non emergency, panic induced calls, feel free to call me out on that again Dr Nat)
Your response is that Hatzalah is always pikuach nefesh and doctors aren’t dealing with pikuach nefesh . Again, why do you assume that if an emergency service contacts a doctor on Shabbos that it isn’t actually an emergency?
You made assertions, that doctors treat Shabbos like any other day. When you were informed by numerous people that they don’t actually know any doctors who do that, you shrugged it off and said that those people don’t count. Yet your original assertion remains that, an assertion, hardly a fact.DY
” When someone enters medical school, is he guaranteed that he can, if he wishes to, avoid Shabbos shifts in internship and residency?”
Guarantee is strong. There is no such guarantee. A person can decide to only accept “Shomer shabbos” positions and odds are he’ll get one in a field where these exist. But there is no gaurantee
PBA
“I’m not too big of a baal gaava to say I don’t know”
Im glad to here that! Kudos youve grown as earlier you repeated wrong assertions about a filed you knowlittle about in spite of being corrected.
Ok,. menchie is also on same page.
@DY, I count anyone as on same page if we essentially agree on the theory, even if they have different facts.I don’t have to be on a different page just bec someone is ignorant.
mentch1
Obviously everyone should be well-versed in halacha. But what if someone is not. Or he is just not sure. And his kid has a safek pikuach nefesh or sakanas eiver. And his next-door posek is away for Shabbos. Would you tell him not to pick up the phone and call Hatzolah? If so, I’m sure many choshuva rabbonim would disagree with you.Joe -“Boro Park Hatzalah uses a goy to drive home the Hatzalah members, and their car, who went on a call on Shabbos”
How do you know? Are you on Hatzolah?
Anyways, I think PBA is on Queens Hatzolah. They drive their Ambulances & cars home on Shabbos!mentch1-“I think they are malachim”
What kind of Malachim? There are types called Malach Hamuves!
I don’t see a parallel between Hatzalah and doctors, at all.
Hatzalah is specifically designed for pekuach nefesh situations. Especially so on Shabbos, when Yidden are even more reluctant to call Hatzalah if it isn’t a possible real emergency (even slightly). Additionally, Hatzalah is designed for Yidden. It is true that some non-emergency use of Hatzalah is made, incorrectly. But Hatzalah isn’t advertising itself for non-emergencies or for non-yehudim. Those outside-its-scope uses take their use of Hatzalah on their own head/achrayis. Obviously Hatzalah can’t make a determination everytime a call comes in whether it is an appropriate use of Hatzalah, since they risk making a wrong call if they deny service and it turns out it really was a true emergency.
On the other hand, doctors are specifically there to provide medical assistance even when it is clearly not an emergency or life threatening situation. I don’t think an intern or resident expects to not provide medical assistance on Shabbos for people who come to his medical facility on Saturday even though they could wait until Sunday or Monday, without any real problem, to get their issue looked at. Additionally, most interns, residents and doctors are mostly dealing with non-yehudim. And, furthermore, unlike Hatzalah members who only respond on Shabbos after an emergency call comes in, the doctors are going (driving) to their place of work on Shabbos before any emergency occurs. Many Saturdays they might not even have any pikuach nefesh situation that whole day at their facility.
“How do you know? Are you on Hatzolah?”
Is it necessary to be a member of hatzalah to know what their guidelines are?
Read the “madrich” for the BP members and what their poskim hold. It is different than the madrich for the flatbush members, who follow different poskim. You can buy it online.
doctors and other healthcare professionals turn to their LORs for halakhic advice; not to a blog, BH. individuals can rely on RSZA ztl’s view of electricity and use the phone in any situation of safek pikuach nefesh or even pikuach eiver. returning medical professionals also have poskim to guide them. frumkeit in this area can be costly and an issur de’oraysah. as Rav Chaim Brisker once noted in defense of one of his idiosyncratic psakim, i am machmir in pikuach nefesh.
Dr Nat
Case involving a neighbor some years ago
5 year old fell down knocking out front baby tooth. Mom panicked called Hatzalah. 5 units responded on Shabbos. You tell me, should mom have called Hatzalah? I would say the answer is obvious. Yet these cases do happen.
And while we are at it
End of life cases, spouses having hospitals call on Shabbos to let children know that dad passed away.
Or asking the hospital to call and let grandma know that a baby is born.
People can be cavalier about Shabbos when emotions run high.
I don’t blame the doctors, hatzalah or the goy in the hospital picking up the phone. People need to take a minute and think about Shabbos. (unless of course that minute is the difference between life and death)Apy -“Read the “madrich” for the BP members and what their poskim hold. It is different than the madrich for the flatbush members, who follow different poskim. You can buy it online”
Why in the world would I buy an Hatzolah Madrich? That’s the last thing I’d ever need!
And btw, even in Lakewood, do you think that they always wait for a Goy to drive them home?!?
So as much as a Frum doc is a Mechallel Shabbos – so is a Hatzolah guy!Mentch1
Of course people should not call Hatzolah for stupid things. I’m not arguing with that. People need to be educated. I’m just talking about things which are truly questionable. I would assume anyway, that they would have non-Jewish dispatchers who would understand not to call a Jewish paramedic for a knocked-out tooth.DrYidd:
Careful!!!
Watch your language!!!Joseph
“I don’t see a parallel between Hatzalah and doctors, at all.”
Look harder.
For example:
An Emergency room is specifically designed for pekuach nefesh situations. It is true that some non-emergency use of Emergency rooms are made, incorrectly. But Emergency rooms iarent advertising itself for non-emergencies. Those outside-its-scope uses take their use of Emergency rooms on their own head/achrayis. Obviously Emergency rooms can’t make a determination everytime a patient comes in whether it is an appropriate use of an Emrgency room, since they risk making a wrong call if they deny service and it turns out it really was a true emergency.(I removed the references to aino yejhudinm since according to most poskim, (though not all) that isnt relevant practically)
“Many Saturdays they might not even have any pikuach nefesh situation that whole day at their facility”
It depends both on the facility and specialty
I would estimate that, Emergency medicine, intensivists, interventional cardiologists, nephrologists, vasc surgeons, cardio thoracic surgeons, and anesthesiologists save lives every day (Im sure there are others IVe left off).
Many other specialties save lives most days. (obviously depends on thee institution)Dont generalize before labeling people as mechalelel Shabbos
This applies both those who do go to “work” on Shabbos and those who dont.Guarantee is strong. There is no such guarantee. A person can decide to only accept “Shomer shabbos” positions and odds are he’ll get one in a field where these exist. But there is no gaurantee
So if someone asked you for advice about medical school, in all fairness, you would need to advise that after finishing school, they may not be able to have a career unless they work on Shabbos.
“Hatzalah is specifically designed for pekuach nefesh situations”
Yes, so is the 911 system. That doesn’t mean people don’t call for stupid reasons. Ask anyone in the field (either Hatzola or 911) over 90% of calls aren’t real emergencies.
“Hatzalah can’t make a determination everytime a call comes in whether it is an appropriate use of Hatzalah, since they risk making a wrong call if they deny service and it turns out it really was a true emergency.”
Your ignorance on this matter is glaring. Even if s/o calls Hatzola and says explicitly “I stubbed my toe last week and need an ambulance” they are legally obligated to respond. If they don’t they will be closed down by the DOH by the end of the day. They cannot pick and choose what they respond to.(I removed the references to aino yejhudinm since according to most poskim, (though not all) that isnt relevant practically)
It’s not relevant practically when it comes up. You have to save anyone.
Is it relevant in putting yourself in that position l’chatchilah?
ubiq: That answers for ER doctors, but not all other doctors. And non-yehudim is more relevant for doctors on Shabbos than Hatzalah since Hatzalah is mostly responding to Yidden, even granting there are exceptions, where doctors are mostly, by far, not. So it is a different shailos on this issue for doctors than Hatzalah.
Furthermore, many specialities mostly deal with NON-life threatening issues, including on Shabbos. And even specialities that have pekuach nefesh situations on Shabbos, the Jewish doctor will often go/drive to work on Shabbos and have many Saturdays at work where he gets no pikuach nefesh patients. Yet he went/drove to work that Shabbos without having a single situation justifying chillul Shabbos.
“So if someone asked you for advice about medical school, in all fairness, you would need to advise that after finishing school, they may not be able to have a career unless they work on Shabbos.”
Yes.
however it is a question of priorities.
For example given the current duty hours where everybody gets one day off in 7 it isnt that hard to work with a program that otherwise might have trouble filling its spots t ogaurantee that his day off would be Saturday even if they never formally had a “shomer shabbos spot”Of course if a person doesnt match one year, he can take a year to do research and try again the following year as a more competiive applicant.
The Bottom line is for a non-competiive specialty it isnt that hard t o arrange for Shabbos. Though yes, I caution their is no gaurantee just like anything in life, (there is no gaurantee of getting a residency at all) and like in any career a hefty dose of syata d’shmaya is needed.
I never met anyone who wanted a Shomer Shabbos spot and couldnt get one. The people I know who ddidnt do shomer shabbos either:
a. were in a competitive specialty where “shomer shabbos” spots dont exist
b. Decided for whatever reason they didnt want a shabbos spot
c. Had Shomer shabbos spots available but opted for a non-shomer shabbos spot at a more prestigous institution.I think this might be interesting to the discussion. I wonder how many frum medical students/doctors keep these conditions layed out by the Steipler zt”l.
I will note that the OP wrote, “Can one actually go to med school and still make time to learn Torah (at least 2 hours a day), make it to minyan and daven three times a day?”, and these conditions were explicitly stipulated in the Steipler’s letter.
“I wonder how many frum medical students/doctors keep these conditions layed out by the Steipler zt”l.”
How many Uber drivers do?
Uber drivers aren’t institutionally precluded, as a practical matter, from following those stated conditions to remain a Ben Torah.
DY
Thanks for sharing The Steipler’s letter was interesting
And as mentioned to the OP
LEarning 2 hours a day is very hard though not impossible
Davening with a minyan 3 times a day is impossible.“Is it relevant in putting yourself in that position l’chatchilah?”
The poskim (plural) Ive spoken to said no .
Though I guess it could depend on what lechatchila means is that before medical school (not knowing where he will end up practicing) or when one accepts a position in a hospital that caters t oa diverse group?Joseph
“That answers for ER doctors, but not all other doctors.”As said over and over and over. Doctors are different they have different roles and are at different levels of training, have different responsibilities etc etc.
” And non-yehudim is more relevant for doctors on Shabbos than Hatzalah since Hatzalah is mostly responding to Yidden, even granting there are exceptions, where doctors are mostly, by far, not. So it is a different shailos on this issue for doctors than Hatzalah.”
I have never hear or seen this difference spelled out practically. Yes in mindset and in the background there may be a difference. but when push comes to shove, are you aware of any source written or otherwise that says there is a difference IN PRACTICE?
( I believe there is a mishaneh halachos that says on a desert Island there would be a practical nafka mina though even there not all agree, and I dont think any hospital in NY counts as a desert island)
“Furthermore, many specialities mostly deal with NON-life threatening issues, including on Shabbos.”
depends on the specialty
” And even specialities that have pekuach nefesh situations on Shabbos, the Jewish doctor will often go/drive to work on Shabbos and have many Saturdays at work where he gets no pikuach nefesh patients. ”
Depends on the specialty
Again though and this was my main point to the false “facts” first presented by the poster who kept making stuff up. many frum Dcotors dont work at all on Shabbos.
Thank you for at least keeping this discussion on point. I would say that, in all deference to the Steipler ZTVK”L, it would be necessary for each person to get advice from a spiritual leader with whom he acquainted personally and who is alive today, and not use a letter that was written to another person thirty-some-odd years ago. Likewise, we all know what the Rambam says about a person working three hours a day and learning for eight. But how many people can actually live up to this and still support their family?
To be perfectly honest, it is definitely a challenge to go through medical school. But many other career choices also fraught with challenges. I would put medical school in the category of Derech Aruka Shehi Ketzarah. Because once you get through it, it only gets easier throughout your life. This is something that you cannot say about a number of other professions.Dr. Nat:
If you read the Steipler’s letter carefully, you will find that he is responding to a shailoh in a more general sense, not just to the recipient of the letter.
BTW – that letter was written to Rabbi Abraham J. Twerski in Milwaukee. The Steipler knew his father from Hornesteipel, and concluded the letter with sending regards to him. The Twerski family has many anecdotes from interactions with the Steipler ZT”L, who spoke of their family with great awe and respect. Rabbi Dr. Twerski published a sefer with his correspondence with the Steipler, which lasted for over 30 years.
Perhaps Rabbi Twerski was an unusual case. But the letter was written as a general issue. You are correct, however, in suggesting that one with such aspirations have someone to serve as a guide. This is ever more important with the vast changes that have occurred in the medical field, medical education, and technology over the years since 1955.
I knew that the letter was written generally. I also knew that it was written to Dr. Twersky. Nevertheless, there are a number of factors that might not apply today and to a specific person.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.