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There are lots of jobs in which the employer expects his employees to be available seven days a week.
I asked which professions.
“In which other professions are the challenges of shmiras Shabbos as great as being a physician?”
You’re right, the halachic challenges a Dr faces aren’t matched by any other profession. But as you have correctly pointed out, they are challenges, which is why one needs to have a Rav before they start on this journey.
Yes Shabbos is a challenge faced by many physicians, more so than other professions.
however there are a wide variety of approaches to how this is handled.
Partly depending on specialtyThere are some who work (almost) every Shabbos there are others who have never had any call or done any melacha on Shabbos.
and there are many in between.I am fairly certain this was mentioned already. and I dont really think think there is much to debate on this issue (as far as the metzius)
Oh, now we’re calling it a “challenge.”
Like, it’s very hard to not talk lashon hara, or to not have kaas, or to have kavana during davening. It’s challenge. We all try to work on our challenges.
Yeah, it’s a “challenge” to not take a residency which means you won’t keep shabbos for the next 3 years.
I have a relative who is a doctor and he doesn’t work on Shabbos and never did.
But PBA is a doctor. He also knows all the Jewish doctors. All from his basement in his undershirt. So who are you to argue with him?
Yeah, it’s a “challenge” to not take a residency which means you won’t keep shabbos for the next 3 years.
So now we’re down to three years, rather than your previous description of raising kids without being home for Shabbos.
Soon we’ll be down to complaining about doctors needing to rely on the bungalow colony eruv.
Where is the mute button?
PBA
Please stop generalizing.
As you said:
“Who are all these ppl saying ridiculous stuff?You don’t get to change the facts because you have a friend who is a doctor.”
There are plenty of Shomer shabbos residencies. IF you dont know what is available and dont know the realities just ask.
And yes we all have challenges. Im not sure what the problem is with that descriptor, some are challenged by feeling the need to opine when they clearly have no clue what they are talking about. for others the challenge is being deprived of your beautiful ” yell[ing] at their kids and swill scotch and fall asleep on couch. ”
I’m just curious
I have numerous friends who are doctors. I can think of several who I would classify as “yeshivish”. One never took a Shabbos call in his life, even in residency. The others took call on Shabbos, but never “dressed up and treated it like a regular day”. Today in private practice, all of these friends have made arrangements and do not carry phones on Shabbos.
Frum doctors are sometimes forced to take call on Shabbos, but why is this different than hatzalah? Generally being on call means taking emergency calls. Why are people on this site thinking that doctors just go into work on Shabbos as if it is a regular day?of course. let’s all stop generalizing.
I’ll stop pretending that all doctors don’t keep shabbos just because most don’t, and you’ll stop pretending that all do just because you’re uncles cousin knew someone who he thinks keeps shabbos because he wears a yarlmuke and is making a siyum on baba basra today.
Well I would definitely advise all frum doctors not to be mechallel Shabbos on PBA should the need ever arise. Lo Ro’uy Ze Lechallel Olov Es Hashabbos. We’ll find a nice goyishe doctor if one is around.
PBA
First of all
“and you’ll stop pretending that all do ”
I did no such thing and in fact said the opposite on more than one occasionsecondly, back up a second
this thread was about someone asking about ” who want to be doctors but live a frum life”
to that end he/she asked a few specific questions that were adressed.you then brought up Shabbos in a hilarious fashion.
I pointed out that regarding Shabbos there is a lot of variability. Though agreed it was an issue/challenge.
You then wrongly generalized “The bottom line is that if you become a doctor, you will probably no longer keep shabbos. ”
I pointed out a few more times that this wasnt always the case, though agreeing that it was a challenge. and you repeated your false information a few more times, (hilariously as always)At no point did I ever say it was never an issue or that “all doctors kept Shabbos” you created a strawman while repeating your wrong contention
And again, while you seem to be getting the bulk of your info from my uncles cousin who knew somebody, he isnt a good source of information, and sadly youve been misinformed.
mentch1
“Frum doctors are sometimes forced to take call on Shabbos, but why is this different than hatzalah? ”
It generally isnt , though it depends on a lot of specifics and the exact nature of the call. Obviously an internist who drives to manage the local urgent care treating sore throats and fevers isnt the same as hatzolah. But I dont know any frum peple who do this (though that isnt to say there are some who do it under some “doctor heter” that I am not aware of.)“Generally being on call means taking emergency calls. Why are people on this site thinking that doctors just go into work on Shabbos as if it is a regular day?”
Ive wondered the same I think it is because they dont run out in middle of Shul with sirens blazing off to save the day. IT just doesnt carry the same panache, as one poster put it “Doctors put on their work clothes, go to their regular job” saving lives * being deprived of the post life saving “yell[ing] at their kids and swill scotch and fall asleep on couch”
*Please dont mistake this for a generalization, while not all physicians save lives on a day to day basis, many do, it is this limited group that I am referring to when I say they are no different than hatzolah.
Wow, and Dr. Nat manages to take an internet discussion to the level of advocating letting someone die, who he has never met.
If I were to generalize, I would now say that all doctors are sociopaths, but I have no proof that Dr. Nat is in fact a doctor. Probably a phlebotomist.
Why is everyone up in arms over the king of the trolls and his/her comments, as outlandish as they may be.
Popa’s just jealous ’cause he couldn’t get into medical school.
PBA:
Most frum doctors are mechalel Shabbos? Do you really think so? Based on what? Your fantasy about this is getting a lot of people irritated. Is that your goal?
Meanwhile, I know of lots of non-medical people who commit all kinds of aveiros, some related to their careers, others unrelated. What sorts of pronunciations will you conjure up for them? How about people who smoke, which is an issur d’oraysa according to the overwhelming majority of poskim? What about those people who have unfiltered phones? Any labels or fantasy accusations for them? Or are all these people undercover physicians?
You have settled on the bizarre, and should not be taken seriously.
So now smoking is as bad as being mechallel Shabbos?
Your fantasy about this is getting a lot of people irritated. Is that your goal?
Goal? No. Maybe a side benefit.
Why is everyone up in arms over the king of the trolls and his/her comments, as outlandish as they may be.
Obviously, because they are my trolls and I’ve called them to arms. To arms! Attack! KILL THEM ALL!!!!!!!
Ubiquitin
A good percentage of Hatzalah calls don’t fall into the category of saving lives.
There are numerous calls every day that hatzalah takes but don’t actually fall into the category of pikuach nefesh. People call Hatzalah in a panic without thinking if it’s really necessary on shabbos. A friend quit Hatzalah because he was tired of taking calls on shabbos that turned out to be nothing more then people wanting free rides to a hospital for non urgent care.
My original question stands, and especially to PBA, why are doctors worse for taking calls on a phone on shabbos (probably not a diorysah) then hatzoloh taking calls?Joseph:
I am not the only one who has commented on YWN about smoking. But you might consider searching the archives. I wrote a long comment some time ago in which I documented the overwhelming majority of poskim who ruled that smoking was assur min haTorah. Repetition should not be necessary. Look it up.
If Rav Chaim Brisker Zt”l would have been around when someone called with safek pikuach nefashos, he would have run himself to be mechallel Shabbos. But you know more than he did. Maybe also think that if you scare people off from making the “stupid” phone calls, you will cause someone with a real issue not to call and get a life saved. Please go back and learn the halachos.
Dr Nat
I am assuming you are addressing my comment
I did not imply in my post that people shouldn’t call Hatzalah on shabbos when they are worried about a safek pikuach nefesh
My comment had to do with judging doctors more harshly than Hatzalah.
I want to know from all the commentators that took doctors to task, why are they not entitled to the same heterim as hatzalah?mentch1
I’m sorry I thought I was clear. There is no difference generally speaking.
I was explaining the perceived diference. I dont want to speak for PBA but he already answered thsi question (and Ive heard it from others) he said:
“it is way different from for example being in hatzala where you regularly do melacha on shabbos for specific pikuach nefesh situations. Doctors treat shabbos like any other day.”
He then elaborates :
“Hatzalah guys wear a radio, and go to shul, and daven, and go home, and eat a seudah (and yell at their kids and swill scotch and fall asleep on couch). Albeit perhaps also run out on a few calls. Doctors put on their work clothes, go to their regular job”The Emergency room physician who covers an ER from 7 to 7 is up before most hashkama minyanim and goes off to save lives like he does every day (on that point he is right, aside from the generalaztion as not all frum doctors go in shabbos). IT just doesnt carry the same panache as the hatzola guy who is hocking in shul on his radio and rns off sirens blazing to save the day. Sure the patient he is saving will require the help of our ED doctro friend who has been up since 6 or earlier and doesnt get to “swill scotch and fall asleep on couch” but nobody sees him. Sadly he wakes up to early and doesnt get fancy sirens.
(Also I think a perceived difference might be the clientele. Hatzolah saves mostly yidden, though some goyim “slip in” as well. A doctor is equally taking care of everybody mostly Goyim even in a Hospital like Maimonides. Im not sure if this is viewed as a difference, Joseph implied that it was. Though I dont want to put words in his mouth. and I have never heard this distiction given and I dont beleive any posek b’zman hazeh views this as a difference.)
As an side as for the OP. IT is worth noting than even if Doctor does have a heter to “work” on shabbos. PBA’s point is stil valid as there is no question that the family’s social aspects of shabbos are interupted and this is certainly importnant to consider even if no halachos are being violated.
I believe this was PBA’s original point, and it is a valid one. My only contention was the generalaztion that htis applied to “all doctors”
Ubiquitin:
Am I correct, or incorrect, that most frum doctors do not do a shomer shabbos residency, and do not even try to?
TLIK, My question to you was whether smoking carries the same severity as an aveira as chillul Shabbos.
PBA -““it is way different from for example being in hatzala where you regularly do melacha on shabbos for specific pikuach nefesh situations. Doctors treat shabbos like any other day.”
In NYC, Hatzolah guys are Mechallel Shabbos just like doctors are!
They drive themselves home, but in Lakewood, they get a Goy to drive them home.
(They don’t call the Goy on the radio, obviously.)Boro Park Hatzalah uses a goy to drive home the Hatzalah members, and their car, who went on a call on Shabbos.
PBA
Are they required to look for a shomer shabbos residency program?
As I said, I know numerous yeshivish doctors, some who even learn half a day and work the other half.
If you would like, I can take a survey and find out about the shaylos they asked prior to starting med school. But frankly, to imply (as it has been implied here) that there is something severely hashkafucally wrong with going to med school, is, I believe, incorrect.Smoking versus chilul Shabbos.
There are plenty of technical differences. Shabbos is a lo sa’aseh and an asei. Smoking is probably only a lo sa’aseh. Shabbos is used as a benchmark, with the example of someone who is mechalel Shabbos befarhesyoh. That distinction is not found in most other areas of aveiroh. Smoking is transgressed in one single manner. Chilul Shabbos has 39 melachos plus many hundreds of toldos, with additional shvusim which are Miderabonon.
I am not getting into the details of the subject. One who is oveir a lo sa’aseh that is Mide’oraysa has violated something very serious. Smoking meets that criterion quite well. Regardless, I was making the point that PBA was grouping all frum doctors as baalei aveiroh. Aside from the factual accuracy of that, I was addressing his choice of the medical field, singling it out from among a vast number of careers. His argument was thus limited to having used accurate grammar, not having sensible content.
“Am I correct, or incorrect, that most frum doctors do not do a shomer shabbos residency, and do not even try to”
I honestly do not know. Most that I know have done a shomer shabbos residency (when I say most I mean 90%) though I readily admit I have access to a biased sample since I hang out in more “black hat” circles, relatively speaking of course.
I’d guess its lower in other circles, but I do not know first hand.
So you disagree with the Gemara?
You think I’m implying that?
Implying that?
Really?
I don’t know any clearer way to say it much.
Popa isn’t saying doctors aren’t good people. He isn’t saying they don’t love their mothers or that they watch TV on Shabbos when they’re not on call. I think the point he’s making is that it’s a lot more intrusive in frum life than other professions. You would have a home in which Dad goes to work every Shabbos; that’s a bit scary for child-raising even if it is mutar. Kids don’t understand these things so easily.
If someone is already a doctor and they want to become frum, nobody is saying they should stay out on account of their profession. But, if you are young and are thinking about med school, these are things to be considered. They shouldn’t just be sworn off even if someone’s uncle’s cousin’s friend DID manage to make it work.
my childrens pediatrcian, is shomer shabbos. was not mechalel shabbos during his residency, or at any time during his medical school training. he sees his frum patients on shabbos (when they knock on his door during the seudah, come to him in shul or interrupt his time with his chavrusa), has his office hours in between his morning, afternoon and night seder and his children are fine upstanding shomre torah umitzvos and yirei shamayim. yep, he is going to gehinnom, via the express hov lane.
NC
Welcome to the party
“Popa isn’t saying doctors aren’t good people….”
Nobody claimed he was.” I think the point he’s making is that it’s a lot more intrusive in frum life than other professions. ”
Thats not just his point that is what the thread si about.“That isnt jut his point that is what the You would have a home in which Dad goes to work every Shabbos; ”
Its not every Shabbos and its not every Doctor.
“that’s a bit scary for child-raising even if it is mutar. Kids don’t understand these things so easily.”
Kids are smart. The same way kids understand that when Tatty gets off his couch flashes hic cherry lights and saves the day its allowed, Dcotor’s kids understand too.
“But, if you are young and are thinking about med school, these are things to be considered. ”
Agree completely.
“They shouldn’t just be sworn off even if someone’s uncle’s cousin’s friend DID manage to make it work.”
Except it isnt just someones uncle’s cousins friend. That was PBA’s talking and he simply doesnt know what he is talking about. IT is many many frum Doctors.
And I mean those who take no call on shabbos at all.
Though I agree it is a concern and is worth discussing. But not in some hyperbolic manner devoid of any fact.The problem with you folk is you get so hung up on defending your uncle’s brother’s friend who is a doctor, that you can’t see your right elbow from your left ear. Forget that, you probably can’t even touch your right elbow to your left ear.
Here’s the bottom line. It is totally accepted that doctors do residencies and shifts that require them to treat shabbos like a regular day, even though there is zero pikuach nefesh need for them to do that. And while I’m sure they’re correct that it’s muttar min hadin, it is definitely wrong.
And it’s a bushah on the frum medical profession that they let it happen. Consider that no other profession has allowed their work to intrude on shabbos, even in ways that are probably muttar. Would it be assur for a biglaw lawyer’s associate to come to their house, and show them some changes in a document, and then go execute based on his advice? I don’t know–I bet there is something they could do that would be muttar. But every other profession drew a hard line around shabbos, and didn’t go looking for heterim.
And then there are the people who agree that there is something wrong with it, but won’t discuss it. They won’t raise the topic themselves, and will tell anyone who raises it that they are being a hyperbola or a hypotenuse so that they can shut down the discussion (instead of just discussing it minus the quadratic equation, because they trying to bury it). What drives those people? If the internet had existed in the time of the gemara, would it say tov sheb’internet l’gehenom?
Aside: All you arguing with the gemara are basically kofrim. If you don’t like what it says, too blasted bad. It’s the gemara. You should try learning it someday, and maybe you could have made a siyum today on baba basra.
Would it be assur for a biglaw lawyer’s associate to come to their house, and show them some changes in a document, and then go execute based on his advice?
Yes, absolutely assur meikar hadin.
As an aside, you should really see the meforshim. You can’t take a gemara and read it against all the meforshim in order to fit your agenda. That’s a lot closer to kefirah than anything else I’ve seen on this thread.
Why assur? Fine, you tell us what they could do.
Also, nobody on this thread’s objection was to the application of the gemara, They’re just mad that the gemara says it at all.
שטרי הדיוטות and דבר דבר. I don’t know a way around the latter.
No, they’re mad at your version of the gemara, not the real ones.
Here is a collection of אחרונים I found online.
טוב שברופאים – לקט פירושים: אחרונים
מהר”ל:
“וכך פירושו מה שאמרו (קידושין פב א) ‘טוב שברופאים לגיהנם’. פירוש, מי שהוא רופא ואינו בעל תורת אלקים עם זה, הרי כל ענינו שהוא מעיין בחמרי בלבד, לכך הוא בעל גיהנם. שאין ענין הגיהנם רק ההעדר והרע, ומפני שהחומר אין לו מציאות בפועל, והוא בכח בלבד, ודבק בו ההעדר, כאשר ידוע מענין החומר שאינו נמצא בפעל. לפיכך בעל הטבע, המעיין בענין החמרי שאין לו מציאות בפעל, הוא בעל גיהנם. שגיהנם אין לו מציאות בפועל גם כן, אבל הוא חושך וצלמות, וזה אינו מציאות נחשב כלל. ודבר ברור הוא כי בעל הטבע החמרית, אשר אין לו רק שמתעסק בחמרי, אשר החומר אין לו מציאות בפעל, הוא בעל גיהנם. וזה שאמרו ‘טוב שברופאים לגיהנם’, ופירוש זה ברור גם כן מאוד” (ספר נצח ישראל פרק ל).
קול סופר:
מענין הוא גם פירושו של הקול סופר על המשניות מהגאון בעל מחנה חיים ז”ל שהכוונה של טוב הוא בדייקא, כי רופא מומחה ובקי הוא שחקר והיה מנסה הרבה בכמה חלאים אשר חפץ לנסות וע”י שמתו רבים תח”י וראה שסם זה אינו מועיל וגם זה אינו מועיל בא עד התכלית מה שמועיל א”כ דם הרבה שפך עד שנעשה טוב שברופאים כי הרופא שהולך בעקבי מוריו לא נעשה טוב שברופאים א”כ אם נעשה טוב שברופאים עכ”ח המית הרבה כדי לנסות וראוי לבוא לגיהנם ע”כ (הובא בשו”ת ציץ אליעזר חלק יא סימן מב).
מהרש”א:
דהיינו שמחזיק עצמו לטוב ולמומחה שברופאים, שאין כמוהו, וסומך ביותר על מומחיותו מתוך גאוותו, ולפעמים הוא טועה בטבע זה החולה, וממית את החולה ברפואותיו בדבר שמזיק לחולה זה, אבל יש לו לישא וליתן עם שאר הרופאים כיון שהוא סכנת נפשות, (מהרש”א קידושין).
רבי עקיבא איגר:
כי המדות הטובות שברופאים המה האכזריות, כי רחמן לא יוכל להקיז דם ולחתוך מכה וכיוצא אם יצטרך, וכן צריך לשקר כי אם יגיד לחולה מעמדו לפעמים יקרב מיתתו, והיינו “טוב” המדות הטובות שברופאים כגון להתאכזר אם ישתמשו, במדות הללו סתם אנשים, יביא זאת אותם לגיהנום, וזה שאנו אומרים בתפלה שמו”ע מלך רופא נאמן ורחמן אתה, כי השי”ת הוא רופא נאמן ואין צריך להתאכזר וגם רחמן, (רבי עקיבא אייגר על התורה).
תפארת ישראל:
מי שחושב עצמו לטוב שברופאים מעותד לגיהנם, דאינו מתיעץ עם חביריו ובקולמוסו מונח חיים או מות (קידושין פרק רביעי).
רבי חיים מולאז’ין:
המחלה הגדולה שישנו להאדם, הוא העבירות והחטאים שישנם בידו, והנה בחובת הלבבות (שער הכניעה פרק ז’) כתב שהמדבר לשון הרע על חבירו, אז עוונותיו של ההוא עוברים אליו, נמצא שברגע אחד הרי הוא מרפא את חבירו מחטאת עוונותיו. וזהו “טוב שברופאים” שמרפא באופן המהיר ביותר מהמחלה הגדולה ביותר אבל “לגיהנם” סוף דרכו לבאר שחת על שהוא מדבר לשון הרע על חבירו (הובא בדף על הדף קידושין פב).
רבי יחזקאל אברמסקי:
טוב שברופאים, אותם רופאים שאומרים רק “טוב” בגימטריא י”ז, שאינם מתפללים בשמונה עשרה ברכת רפאינו, שאין בוטחים בד’ אלא כל ישעם על חכמתם ותבונתם, הוא “לגיהנם” כמובא ארור הגבר אשר ישים בשר זרועו וגו’ (שם).
פרדס יוסף:
טוב שברופאים לגיהנם, דהיינו שהרופא צריך שיראה תמיד גיהנם פתוחה לפניו אם יהרוג איש, ויעיין בחריצות לראות שלא יטעה ויבא לסכנת נפשות. פירוש נוסף: לא שייך לומר כל הרופאים לגיהנום, דהרי שמואל (בבא מציעא פה, ב) ורבי חנינא (יומא מט, א) ואבא אומנא (תענית כא, ב) והרמב”ם ובעל מעשי טוביה ועוד היו רופאים וצדיקים, אבל יש ב’ מיני רופאים, א. צדיק שיודע שבלתי ה’ אינו יכול לפעול מאומה והוא רק שליח ה’ ומתפלל רפאנו ה’ כו’, ב. רופא שאינו מאמין בה’ ומחסר ברכת רפאנו בשמונה עשרה ברכות והוי רק י”ז כמנין טו”ב. וזה שאמרו “טוב” שברופאים שאינו מתפלל רק י”ז ברכות מעותד לגיהנם. עוד יש לומר, דלפעמים צריך לחתוך אבר ולהיות אכזר ולא לרחם במקום סכנה, ורופא שהוא טוב ורך לבב מעותד לגיהנם, כמשל העולם מי שאינו יכול להריח אבק שריפה לא ילך למלחמה (פרשת בשלח).
Ok, so a couple fit my narrative. All y’all ok with R’ Akiva Eiger calling you achzarim?
Is it muttar to answer questions on litigation strategy on shabbos? Or to answer questions on corporate law?
Read it carefully. He said they have that מדה, which in others would lead to גיהנום, but for doctors is “טוב”.
No. דבר דבר.
How is that dabeir davar?
I ask you if I’m allowed to dump vials of blood by hand into a river. You say yes it’s fine.
If that’s your business, it’s assur.
To narrow the issue down, if I understand it correctly, the chillul Shabbos-doctor problem is mostly limited to their training in residency for about three years. Correct? Once they get their medical license and become a full fledged doctor, frum doctors can generally control their schedule.
If they hang their own shingle out and open their own practice, they surely can set their own hours and days. If they’re a specialist in a hospital, specialists can choose not to work weekends. (Other non-Jewish specialist can be the Saturday specialist.) An Emergency Room doctor will probably have problems taking off on Shabbos. But is it correct that it’s mainly only an issue for residents?
Even if don’t bill for it?
Joseph, would drinking and forcing others to drink a slow acting poison (that some might be strong or lucky enough to survive) be muttar b’halacha, and would it be a lesser or greater offense then being mechalel shabbos, in your opinion?
I am rather new here and rarely post. The following may be new to many of you and I am just reporting what was written. I am not able to properly represent Rav Aharon Lichtenstein zt”l, who was head and shoulders above all of us and who is no longer alive unfortunately. I ask that everyone treat him and his memory with respect even though you can obviously disagree agreeably, if you feel that you are on his level.
Rav Aharon zt”l was fully aware of the dangers and halchic pitfalls which a medical student and a doctor encounter and nonethess felt that a doctor is involved, on an ongoing basis, in the fulfillment of the mitzva of “rapo yerapei”. It was clear to him that our society needs good doctors and good Jewish doctors, especially in israel.
In a response to a talmid of his who considered entering medical school, Rav Aharon Lictenstein zt”l posited that training to be a doctor is considered “osek b’mitzva” ,
PBA
“Here’s the bottom line.”
General rule: when you dont know what you are talkign about you dont get to decide what the “bottom line” isThe real bottom line is that you are a troll and have a sick pleasure in getting people riled up and aggravated .
“It is totally accepted that doctors do residencies and shifts that require them to treat shabbos like a regular day, ”
again that is true for some.
“even though there is zero pikuach nefesh need for them to do that.”
Im not sure why you say that.
“And while I’m sure they’re correct that it’s muttar min hadin, it is definitely wrong.”
If it is muttar it isnt wrong.…Would it be assur for a biglaw lawyer’s associate to come to their house, and show them some changes in a document, and then go execute based on his advice? I don’t know–”
If you dont know ask. It wouldnot be muttar see DY’s post” But every other profession drew a hard line around shabbos, and didn’t go looking for heterim.”
Becasue they dont deal with saving lives.“And then there are the people who agree that there is something wrong with it, but won’t discuss it. ”
who are those people?
“They won’t raise the topic themselves, and will tell anyone who raises it that they are being a hyperbola or a hypotenuse so that they can shut down the discussion”
You are being hyperbolic and obtuse. you are lying and misrepresenting facts. While I get that you think you are witty and hilarious, that doesn’t make you right.What drives those people? ”
for me just the truth.“Aside: All you arguing with the gemara are basically kofrim. ”
Note I didn’t argue on the gemara, in fact quite the opposite I offered to learn bechavrusa with you. Though sadly I have to rescind the offer, given your love of am haaratzus and lying
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