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Sparkly, the pritzus and kefirah is very real, and smoking is not pikuach nefesh (although it is wrong, and assur according to many).
There is no such thing as a “Perfect frum boy”. Anyone you meet will have flaws
Sparkly: “lilmod ulelamaid – if someone is doing something wrong they DO NEED an explanation for doing it.”
What exactly was this in response to?
ZD, agreed again.
Sparkly: “lilmod ulelamaid – if someone is doing something wrong they DO NEED an explanation for doing it.”
What exactly was this in response to?
Going to movies.
DY – “going to movies”
I don’t think so – I wasn’t the one who mentioned movies. I think it had to do with smoking – I’m just not sure what exactly she was responding to, and I can’t respond to her unless I know.
DY: “ZD, agreed again.”
same here. also on the last point.
ZD:”I am 100% opposed to smoking , Ive never smoked, refuse to go near people who smoke and think its a disgusting habit, but this does touch into a bigger issue, you cant really ban everything. it just doesnt work. The more things you assur, the more likely you will have people committing averiahs”
well said. I think it also explains why my friend and her husband (parents of the above boy) “allowed” him to smoke, and even bought the cigarettes for him (for those who wanted to know where the money came from). I think that his father was acting out of his educational philosophies of not banning everything and making things into issues. The boy knows that his father himself doesn’t smoke and that it’s not a good thing to do, and therefore, he never had a “hava mina” to continue smoking into adulthood, but he needed to be a “teenager” to some extent.
His father realized that, and realized that it was better that he not feel like it was something he had to do behind his parents’ backs. Once a kid starts feeling like he has to do things behind his parents’ backs – that’s when you can start to have a serious problem on your hands.
“In all fairness I don’t think anyone can use the word smoking and healthy in the same sentence and assume people will not be speaking of physical health.
And with a bit of irony to jump at his response (and mine too, shortly) using these words:
“That would be true if you’re a very literal person, or if you’re looking to find fault.”
this statement goes towards posters as well, regardless of the “assumed” meaning based on previous posts.”
I had explained right away what the Rosh Yeshiva had meant by health. I was the only one here who was part of the conversation, so I am the only one who can tell you what took place. You don’t have to believe me, but if you are going to believe me for part of the conversation, it makes sense to believe the rest. Obviously, I didn’t give over every word and every nuance of the conversation. It probably would have been more accurate to have said, “It was clear from the conversation that he was not talking about physical health”. Okay, now I said it! Now it should be clear to everyone if it wasn’t before!
I do find it disturbing that people think that going to a movie is worse than smoking
Sparkly – then you certainly shouldn’t be calling boys who smoke OTD.
Also, it had nothing to do with Israel. I don’t think anyone here was talking about Israel. I wasn’t.
“I do find it disturbing that people think that going to a movie is worse than smoking”
Going to a movie one time can have a permanent adverse affect. (No, not every movie and not every time, I know).
Smoking a cigarette one time will not have a permanent life altering effect.
“lu – ill let my boys do something else as a “teenage outlet” instead of smoking h’h.”
I suspect you do not have teenage boys.
Sparkly:
“I decided the reason why EVERYONE is having this conflict over which is worse if its smoking or watching a movie is because we come from different places and in different communities where we see things differently. where i live we think its worse to smoke than see a movie while like in israel its worse to see a movie than smoke.”
It took 8 pages of this thread rehashing the same points over and over to finally come to this very important point- everyone is different and one cannot judge others by a narrow view of reality! Someone can have different values or priorities and still not be OTD!
Sparkly,
No doctor EVER said that ONE TIME can have an effect.
If you are worried about the few minutes less to do Mitzvot, any movie is MUCH MUCH longer than a few minutes and no one is doing Mitzvot while watching a movie. Certainly not any of the contemporary movies.
And watching almost any of contemporary movies is AGAINST the Torah. Does that mean ANYONE who watches a movie is off the derech. You CERTAINLY seem to be saying so.
LU, my final comment. In your original post re the rosh yeshiva said that you were assuming his rationale. It wasn’t until much later that you said you had personal involvement. Had you said that originally, I wouldn’t have made my comment. And, yes, as originally posted, I find nothing wrong with finding fault with a claim of healthy smoking
The effects of smoking are small cumulative effects, meaning that it’s not “this one cigarette” that results in addiction or that causes lung disease.
Smoking on occassion doesn’t guarantee an addiction but on the other hand it’s difficult to pinpoint, and very ideosyncratic, the exact timing of onset of addiction or lung disease. There are poskim who poskin assur; other poskim don’t (the “minhug” of Chosson cigarettes is still going strong). My point of contention is the OTD labeling.
Unfortunately, many of us have done aveiros, and sometimes even habitually: lashon hara, shmiras einayim, being lax in betching, brachos or hilchos boreir, not properly declaring taxes, and on and on – that doesn’t make us OTD – it means we have a weakness that needs tikun. Unfortunately there are sufficient real OTDers out there, that we don’t want to broaden the parameters of OTD and create self-fulfilling prophecies.
dbrim: “The effects of smoking are small cumulative effects, meaning that it’s not “this one cigarette” that results in addiction or that causes lung disease.
Smoking on occassion doesn’t guarantee an addiction but on the other hand it’s difficult to pinpoint, and very ideosyncratic, the exact timing of onset of addiction or lung disease. There are poskim who poskin assur; other poskim don’t (the “minhug” of Chosson cigarettes is still going strong). My point of contention is the OTD labeling.
Unfortunately, many of us have done aveiros, and sometimes even habitually: lashon hara, shmiras einayim, being lax in betching, brachos or hilchos boreir, not properly declaring taxes, and on and on – that doesn’t make us OTD – it means we have a weakness that needs tikun. Unfortunately there are sufficient real OTDers out there, that we don’t want to broaden the parameters of OTD and create self-fulfilling prophecies.”
Shkoyach for getting to the heart of the matter! It’s Elul now, and we should be working on being dan l’kaf zchus EVERYONE including those who are OTD, those who smoke, and those who watch movies!! Being dan l’kaf zchus is probably more important than any of these other things, and most likely to bring Moshiach!
lc: “And, yes, as originally posted, I find nothing wrong with finding fault with a claim of healthy smoking”
The issue is the context. This wasn’t a thread about whether or not it is a good idea for any of us posters to take up smoking. If it had been, I probably would have been posting much different things. The thread was about how those of us who DON’T smoke should view those who do. More specifically, the OP was that anyone who smokes is OTD. That is what I had an issue with. I have no problem with your view that no one should ever smoke. I do have a problem with someone being so judgmental against those who do, and not being able to acknowledge both that there may be other points of view and that no one is perfect and everyone has to make his own cheshbonos.
btw, just for the record, when my friend’s son made the statement that his Rosh Yeshiva said that it’s healthy to smoke, I had the same reaction as you, and I said, “How can anyone use the word healthy in the same sentence as smoking?” (although I think I really did understand what he meant, but as someone who is very opposed to smoking, the idea of putting the word smoking in the same sentence as healthy sounded strange).
When I said that, the kid looked really hurt, and his father immediately rose to his son and son’s Rosh Yeshiva’s defense and explained what the Rosh Yeshiva meant. “Es chatosai ani mazkir hayom.” I felt really badly because he did look really hurt (I hadn’t realized he would be so sensitive about the topic), and I felt bad for being so judgmental, and that is why I reacted so strongly to some of the comments here that also sounded judgmental to me about boys that smoke. I also have to work on not being judgmental about it, because I also grew up that smoking is really bad, but it is not fair for me to be so judgmental of those who do, especially when they are much more careful about so many things that I am not as careful about that are probably much more important.
LU -“We don’t decide how bad something is based on our feelings. No Gadol says it’s just as bad as not being shomer negiah. Being shomer negiah may be “yeihareig v’al yaavor”. Any Gadol will tell you that if you have to choose between smoking and not being shomer negiah, it is a million times better to smoke.”
Instead of saying it’s your opinion – you say Negiah is YVY from Gedolim and it’s better to smoke! Name the Godol! First of all, I don’t think everyone holds Abizrioh of Arious is YVY. Even if e/o holds it is, maybe smoking is also. Because smoking is Mavid Atzmo
L’daas! And not just that it’s Abizrioh of Rezicha, due to second -hand smoke!
Sparkly – it has already been explained to you many times why you can’t say that smoking is worse than watching movies. If you have a logical argument in response, please let us know. (I’m also not even sure why this comment is being directed at me, since I did not bring up movies.)
Sparkly -“Health – as your name implies you SHOULD REALLY know that smoking is NOT safe and is unhealthy”
When I post, I usually quote the other’s person post!
I myself don’t hold like that.
you NEVER know maybe it can make a person die a few minutes earlier that means a few minutes less to serve G-d.
The reason to not smoke is because it will lead to not serving Hashem (i.e. obey Him) as well, while the reason to not watch movies is because that itself is disobeying Him.
DY – “going to movies”
I don’t think so –
I know, I was being facetious.
DY -“The reason to not smoke is because it will lead to not serving Hashem (i.e. obey Him) as well, while the reason to not watch movies is because that itself is disobeying Him.”
The reason to not smoke is because that itself is disobeying Him.
Btw, did you ever hear why you need a fence on your roof?
I think the reason for not smoking has to do with hishtadlus. Smoking doesn’t directly cause anyone’s death. It is possible to smoke and live a long life, and it is possible to not smoke and die young. According to Mesilas Yesharim and Chovos Halevavos (and other mussar sefarim), it’s not the hishtadlus that causes things to happen, it’s that we are supposed to have hishtadlus because Hashem said to (and if don’t listen to Hashem and do the proper hishtadlus, we might end up dying), but since we are only doing the hishtadlus because Hashem said to, it only makes sense to do hishtadlus that is according to Hashem’s Will. If we do hishtadlus that is not according to Hashem’s Will, we won’t gain anything from it.
We are not allowed to do hishtadlus that involves doing an aveira. So if the only way for someone to avoid smoking is by not being shomer negiah, it is better for them to smoke, and they gain NOTHING by not being shomer negiah instead of smoking.
Movies is slightly more complicated. While I would say as a general rule that movies are worse, there are many factors to take into account. You can be talking about a boy from a background where movies are normal and smoking is not, and he has a choice between watching a movie that was made for 3 year olds as opposed to becoming addicted to smoking. Or you can be talking about a boy from a background where all movies are considered treif, and the choice is between watching a clearly treif movie or smoking cigarettes temporarily and not enough to get addicted.
DY – “going to movies”
I don’t think so –
I know, I was being facetious.”
lol. It took me a while to figure out what you were talking about -that comment was so long ago!
DY: “The reason to not smoke is because it will lead to not serving Hashem (i.e. obey Him) as well, while the reason to not watch movies is because that itself is disobeying Him.”
You always manage to phrase things so much better and more concisely than I do! I wrote a whole long post, and then realized that you really said the same thing in essence in shorter and simpler terms.
Maybe it’s because of my nine kavim.
The reason to not smoke is because that itself is disobeying Him.
Btw, did you ever hear why you need a fence on your roof?
Excellent. Now compare not building a maakeh to jumping off of the roof.
LU -“I think the reason for not smoking has to do with hishtadlus”
So what?!?
Did you ever hear why you need a fence on your roof?!?
“The Goq – so does this mean that you are officially OTD now?”
As opposed to unofficially ?
I direct readers who wish to address this from a more factual position to review a sefer ???? ??? ?????. The author is Horav Yechezkel Escheik, and was published in Bnei Brak around ???”?. The haskamos span the spectrum, including Rav Shteinman, Rav Moshe Shmuel Shapiro, Rav Michel Yehuda Lefkowitz, Rav Shmuel Halevi Wosner, Rav Yerachmiel Gershon Edelstein, Rav Boruch Dov Povarsky, Rav Matisyahu Salomon, Rav Shimon Bedni, Rav Yitzchok Zilberstein, aside from the numerous quotes from other Gedolei Poskim. There are as serious problems with the single cigarette as with the habitual smoking. Once that sefer is reviewed, one may comment with some education behind the comment. It seems clear from the countless quotes throughout the sefer that the issur is without compromise. The offense is great, and the popular tendency to minimize it is without Torah basis. I cannot be the one who weighs to separate issurim of the Torah when a choice is needed. But it is not a chumrah, but rather a simple, direct issur. I have also heard from witnesses that Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky and Rav Aharon Kotler both pronounced the issur on smoking to be d’Oraysa. A posek is not needed for that, as the scientific data is clear. Poskim needed to speak out about it, not because of the shailoh, but because of the public’s tendency to reject a halacha that challenges the addiction. One may also wish to review what Rav Dessler writes in Michtav Me’Eliyahu.
Health:
“LU -“I think the reason for not smoking has to do with hishtadlus”
So what?!?
Did you ever hear why you need a fence on your roof?!?”
Yes, because it’s a passuk mefurash in the Torah. Smoking is not.
Question: Have you ever done anything unhealthy? Personally, right now, I am doing something exceedingly unhealthy by staying up all night to help my mother. Do you think Hashem will punish me for this? (I forgot to mention all the caffeine that is needed in order to be able to do that…)
Note: there is a big difference between doing something unhealthy and jumping off of a roof. For someone reason, some posters seem to think that smoking a cigarette is comparable to jumping off of a roof. It is not.
The Goq – well, we are all unofficially OTD. Isn’t that why we are in galus? If we are On the Derech, we would not be in galus. The difference is that some people are aware that they are OTD, and some people just think everyone else is. Which category do you fall in?
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