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I am fully in favor of the traditional pre-selichot mussar shmuess, followed by a traditional selichot with the traditional nusach. No guitars, no dancing, just selichot. That’s what we had in my Dati L’umi shul, western edge of Mateh Binyamin. God’s country. We’re preparing for shmittah, by the way, but I guess that isn’t included in the religious concerns of most of the clientele here.
I am confused by the complaint of the OP: Ma Nafshach; If the new musically-oriented selichot are MO, then why bother mentioning it at all? You are preaching to the choir here (no pun intended) and that is batel b’shishim in what the MO stand for, as we all know. If you are preaching to the yeshivish, then shumu shamayim, how could this possibly be happening? Say it ain’t so…
UJM
“ubiq, tochacha is a chiyuv regarding any aveira. Your being able to ignore the aveira by simply not engaging in it, doesn’t absolve you from your chiyuv to give tochacha. And the obligation is upon every Jew.”
absolutely right! Thats why I’m giving you tochacha…
You, on the other hand, are not. 1) for all you know none of the transgressors are here, and 2) no aveira took place.
You need to work on yourself, take my tochacha to heart do teshuva, learn more, as you know so little about most topics you comment on (present thread included). Spend less time looking for faults in other see the good, work on your ayin Tov, work on your honesty.
It isnt too late! take this opportunity to be a better person try to “turn over a new leaf” as Rosh hashana approaches .
Best wishes for a kesiva vechasima tova
You are most welcome for my heartfelt tochacha, I know how much you appreciate it
> doesn’t absolve you from your chiyuv to give tochacha. And the obligation is upon every Jew.
Except people who are not capable of doing tochacha right, which probably includes most of us.
“Except people who are not capable of doing tochacha right, which probably includes most of us.”
Do you say that about other chiyuvim and Mitzvos as well? If you don’t know how to keep Shabbos, don’t keep it. If you don’t know how to learn Torah, don’t learn. If you don’t know how to bring up your children, send them to foster care.
“Do you say that about other chiyuvim and Mitzvos as well?”
Is that how low you are stooping these days? You know darn well that the observance of the mitzvah of tochacha INCLUDES making sure you are qualified and that the recipient is interested. How dare you try to portray him as being lax in mitzvos by calling out your incorrect behavior.
Tochacha must be done in tactful manner, so if you don’t know how, you will do more harm than good, yotzo sechora behefseda. The holy Shlah explains the passage אל תוכיח לץ פן ישנאך when admonishing someone, don’t call him a letz, a fool to hate you, הוכיח חכם ויאהבך call him a chacham, a wise one to love you.
Syag, aren’t you violating your own tenets by being so harsh at him?
It says in Sefer HaChinuch perek 239 that you should give someone tochacha privately and in a nice way; but if they don’t listen to you, then you should embarrass them in public so that they will do teshuvah.
Syag, sorry but the 2nd condition you mentioned – that he be interested – is not among the halachos pf tochacha; it says to do so even if he screams at you “ad hacaah” until he hits you.
Regarding being qualified, you are correct – it’s also to be done without onaas devorim, “lo sisa alav chait” means don’t bear a sin because of him, that he is doing and that you could have stopped, snd don’t bear a sin yourself because of him i.e. the way you’re treating him.
The Rambam Hilchas Deas (6, 8) differentiates between ben adam lechavero where he should not ashame one in public over ben adam lamokam where, if he does not listen, can admonish him in public and ashame him.
Syag, the correct answer is that if someone doesn’t know how to give tochacha, he should learn how to give it. Just as it someone doesn’t know how to fulfill any other obligation, he should learn how to. Not discard it.
ujm > Sefer HaChinuch perek 239
ujm, thanks a lot for the reference! This sefer – that I would probably never find by myself – helps me understand the issue. I continued reading this whole perek and found further excellent advice – that in cases where the listener is not getting it, not to do it, including a reference to Yevamot 65b – that you can fulfil either a mitzva of giving tochacha when needed, or not give one when it should not be.
I also notice that the next perek 240 talks about a prohibition of embarrassing. I wonder whether these two prokim are connected somehow.
Anyway, I hope this is a good illustration of a tochacha given the nice way!
> Just as it someone doesn’t know how to fulfill any other obligation, he should learn how to
There is a profound differences between learning how to do schehita or how to give tochacha. Mitzvot bein adam l’Havero require understanding the other person. Same tochacha may inspire one person and leave another one depressed. For some smart kid, when the Rav explains that he runs the shul according to the people who are there, it may be a step into Rabanut, sociology or psychology; for an emesdik Avira it was a reason to reject the Rav.
So, I am all for people trying to learn it, but do not expect everyone to succeed! Even if they learn everything from their teachers, it might not help – as generations change, and what worked 20 years ago might not work now.
There is one safe method of tochacha that has less side effects – demonstrate the correct way by your own behavior.
Avira > it says to do so even if he screams at you “ad hacaah” until he hits you.
I think it is a machlokes whether you need to wait until he actually hits you, or you need to stop when you see him ready to hit. Given the realities of the 2nd amendment in USA, I would stop earlier to make sure I can continue giving tochacha.
ujm > If you don’t know how to bring up your children, send them to foster care.
off topic, but this is what most people do. There are some rare individuals who either teach kids themselves or sign up as teachers to be teaching their own kids, but most people prefer going to an office, or even WFH lately, while delegating mitzvos of shinantam levanecha, teaching profession, and even swimming. It is a miracle that most are still doing pru urvu themselves!
Back to the concert, there is a story of R Salanter visiting Konengsberg, a busy modern merchant city. First several times there, he declined an invitation to speak. After that, he talked about shabbos and said – I understand that vessels cost a lot of money and it is hard not to unload them, but could you at least not write down a list of merchandize on Shabbos? Later, he suggested to unload vessels, but not to load the new merchandize, etc. Why did he missed first several weeks? Because there was a visiting Litvak in the shul and R Salanter did not want to give him any ideas about breaking Shabbos. So, a concert might be good for some, but not for others.
Gedolim BLAST Those Who Turn Selichos Into “Evening of Entertainment”
Looks like someone in the CR was four years ahead of the curve.
Perhaps it was he who brought this spreading tumor to the attention of Gedolei Yisroel.
perhaps we should institute tiktok dances for selichos, since thats what the younger generation is into…for kiruv, you can do anything as long as people “want” to be close to Hashem…and if you say that making selichos into coordinated tiktok dances is wrong, or out of place….how dare you turn people away from the Torah!
And Yom Kippur will be turned into a Kumzitz.
Does anyone know if these selichos with musical accompaniment and singing are increasing every year?
From anecdotal evidence, it appear that the number of events and crowds for the first night of Ashkenazi Selichos have been growing. It might be that this type of First Night of Selichois, talks to a lot of peoples neshamos and motivates them to do Teshuva M’Ahava which is bigger than Teshuva M’Yirah.
I would like to point out that the sign encourages everyone to realize that the purpose of coming to selichos daily is not to simply “say selichois” but the following:
“They tremble and quake at the day of Your coming [to judge them,] they are panic-struck— as a woman giving birth the first time, from the burning wrath You carry; O’ please, wipe away their filth that they may praise Your wonders, [and] hear our cry and our prayer!”“Does anyone know if these selichos with musical accompaniment and singing are increasing every year?”
Until relatively a few years ago (maybe a decade/decade and half) the only places I heard of this were at the Carlebach houses; which attracted some electic crowds, including the long hair types, etc. Almost never heard of them in regular frum, Yeshivish, Heimish or Chasidish circles.
You think music is bad?
The words are so much worse.
I noticed many of the Piyutim. Rhyme!! Some have – shudder- refrains !!! and don’t get me started on motifs.
Oy mah hayah lanu! How did this get so out of hands. There are no rhymes in Tanach. Who instituted this modern innovation of rhyming tefilos?? IT must be stoppedJoseph, my rebbe, you will be pleased to know when the Chazan, excuse me I need a second I feel uncomfrotable writing this out, but when he said Kaddish and used a , again forgive me for saying this, it is strictly to share my tzidkes, he um used a tune rachmana litzlan, (some said this tune is used for neiilah rachman litzlan to contemplate such a thing) But you wil be pleased to know I banged on the bima and made a huge machaah
You’ve taught me well Rebbe. Hope you are proud
Jack, Pesach is a time for teshuva ma’ahavah. RH and Yom Kippur are times for Teshuva Mi’yirah. as you mentioned, the themes of the selichos, tefilos, are trepidation and awe of Din.
The kotzker rebbe used to say that yiras Hashem without ahava is missing in shlaimus, wholeness, but ahavah without yirah is nothing.
Just hippie santa claus god worship.
Seriously, do you think God is proud of you for posting all of your self righteous indignation regarding how others connect to their Judaism? Please just worry about yourself. You’ll be happier, everyone else will be happier and hashem will be happier.
Avira, I don’t understand that as when you love Hashem it is because of His goodness. You want to emulate Him and thereby being afraid not do anything where that love will be extinguished.
Yoyo – i bet you have no problem bashing racists and other people you think are “really” bad..
Reb E, the kotzker means that not having fear of Hashem is denying His greatness, the very thing you’re referring to with your description of ahavah
Ahava generates yirah. Take אהבה and יראה, starting from יראה the first two letters give יראה and the last two letters give אהבה. So, they need each other both have an אה in common.
The ahavah comes because of His greatness but now that very thing makes us repel Him. The closer we get, the further we get. That is the gemora’s kashye, how can we cleave to Him? So we are answered, to emulate His midos.
It’s growing in popularity because the old school kvetch isn’t connecting to some people. You need to ask why the old school litvish style davening isn’t inspiring people as it used to.
lakewhut – it’s because young people today are enamored by sensory input. everything needs to be on a screen or have a loud noise, or be musical, or something to grab them
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