Frolicking Selichos Concert

In the above tshuva Rav Ovadyah Yosef suggests tp say it before Mincha if it is not possible to say it after chatzos.

NC
“Yes, thank you. That’s what you, me, and several others have been repeating throughout this thread, ”

Can you please point out where youve said that? The mods may have deleted it for whatever reason, I cant find it. I too am in agreement!

In fact youve said the opposite on several occasions. Youve said that the problem is one of simcha, at times that are supposed to be serious eg “There are times when we’re supposed to have simcha, and then there are times like leil slichos.” (unless you translate simcha as frolicking?)

“We aren’t talking about BMG guys going off the derech if they can’t have slichos parties. These are people already into hippie Judaism and it should go without saying ”
two people are using your (excellent) screen name the other one was right I’ll repost in verabtim, :

“A scarier trend that isn’t getting as much attention is people not making it to Slichos altogether. I’ve now seen multiple places not be able to get a minyan together for slichos. My slate is not totally clean in this regard so I don’t want to sound too much like I’m getting up on a soap box and yelling at the masses. It’s just a scary thought that decades from now selichos could be one of those things like tikkun chatzos that people “used to be careful to say.””

The only question is is it better if in decades people says selichos is something people “used to be careful to say.””
Or
selcihos is something that never had a guitar

(Obviously I’m not saying this applies to all, but as you note it does apply to many)

apushatayid, “frolicking” is a pejorative characterization that Joseph put on these selichos, in order to tilt the field towards his position that they are inappropriate. Not having witnessed them myself, but knowing that there are <iem>many such selichos, and that they’ve been going on for decades, by all sorts of Jews, not just Carlebachers, I do not accept that characterization.

Of course disco-style music is inappropriate for selichos, if indeed there is any time when it is appropriate. Nor is wedding-style music appropriate to the occasion. But solemn or inspiring music, especially of the type already traditional for centuries and accepted by <i>every</i> community including Joseph’s own, does not become inappropriate simply by adding instruments. The only instrument I’ve ever heard of as being forbidden is the organ, and that’s only since Reform adopted it.

Joseph asks “Will Yom Kippur davening be next, with some “Orthodox” synagogues turning Yom Hakodesh davening into a day of daylong acapella singing, with a choir and all?”

Where do you daven that it is not already so, and hasn’t been so for centuries? In what community is communal singing on Yom Kippur <i>not</i> traditional? I don’t think I want anything to do with such moroh-shchora-dike people. A capella singing is completely appropriate on Yom Kippur, and bigger shuls have had choirs for centuries, and I’ve never heard of anyone objecting to it. And if not for the kedusha of the day there would certainly be instruments as well, in every community, and then we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

There’s nothing wrong with innovation, so long as it’s in the spirit of the occasion. Musical instruments, dancing, whatever, just because it’s new doesn’t make it wrong. The question is only what kind of music, and I do not accept your assertion that the music is “frolicking”, “disco-like”, “wild”, etc. If there is indeed a shul where the atmosphere at selichos — with or without instruments — is such that you could mistake it for a wedding, let alone a nightclub, then I condemn that particular instance. That would not justify extending the condemnation to all musical selichos, the vast majority of which, I’m sure, do maintain a slichos-dige atmosphere during selichos. Before and after is a different story.

But those who are upset with the whole idea of simcha at such a time have forgotten וגילו ברעדה. There must certainly be רעדה, and without it it’s not a slichos, but one must not forget the גילו either.

The sephardim sing by their selichos, and they are considered to have the best mesorah. so when nusach ashkenaz and sephard begin to sing, they are simply returning to the mesorah.
As an aside i know a sephardic bachur who came to his ashkenazi yeshiva’s selichos and said the sephardic version is much easier to push himself to come as it is more enjoyable.
so why don’t we all just leave each other alone?
no one is right or wrong.(at least in my opinion.)

“And having conceded these are modern innovations, you still have neglected to answer the question of specifically which Gedolim approve of these innovations. ”

It’s an irrelevant question. If there’s nothing wrong with it then no endorsements are needed.

“It’s an irrelevant question. If there’s nothing wrong with it then no endorsements are needed.”

Who says there’s nothing wrong with them? If a gadol doesn’t specifically acknowledge open orthodox shul’s ordaining of females do you think that means he approves of it?

Of course anything new needs approval. How could any frum yid claim it doesn’t.

There is a logic to be happy for slichos for appreciating that Hashem because of his mercy gives us an opportunity once a year to ask for His forgiveness. Rosh Hashana is a day we designate such that the satan does not know when it is to be mekadreg and Hashem the King sits on His throne when we tell him so.

joseph

“Will you jump up and down dancing and singing ”

You will be pleased to know that as people began singing on R”H I started yelling and throwing things.

It was abominable. right after unesaneh tokef they started singing some marching song they claimed it was a modzitser tune or something but they can’t fool me , you correctly pointed out singing ( certainly such a joyous upbeat tune) has no place on Rosh Hashana and is a modern innovation .

“and/or having a kumzits on Rosh Hashana”

I have been to some shuls (not my current one where all the tunes are upbeat and joyous as befits a King’s coronation) where they broke out in a kumzitz particularly during chamol

Milhouse, Neville is correct. How can you possibly compare not asking the rabbonim about installing plumbing in your home to every Chaim and Yankel deciding on their own to change how we conduct our tefilos in the Beis HaKenesses?

Seriously? You think anyone on the street can make modifications on what we do in shul without asking any Rov or Godol?!

Joseph, quit being holier than thou. If you want to be taken seriously then do the following. Pay attention to your Rov Drosho before selichois and learn mussar. One big component of mussar is the preaching to the people against bitul zman. When you cease wasting hours on end on these forums and devote the time to torah study instead, then you have the moral high ground to criticize people who you dont agree with hashkafacally. Until then be quiet

nu, so it was frolicking. were they uplifted in any way?

For all those who
Selichos is so unmeaningful That we need eg Carlebach,Kumzitz
My Recommendation is abolish The
Selichos

Preferable To have 10 minutes of collective
[ with obviously all devices off and out of hands reach ]
silent contemplation

Presumably if this presently is too disruptively radical
Hold A Very Abbreviated Selichos

For thousands of years no one used penicillin or chemotherapy

Right. They probably thought penicillin and chemotherapy were a bad idea.

Let’s break this down a bit, Are they committing an AVEIRA? I wouldn’t say that. Are they Jews gathering together with the goal of serving hashem? I think Soo. They have clearly been failed by the mainstream approach ( I’m not sure who is responsible for that). So they moved to plan B to get inspiration. Isn’t that beautiful? I think it is much better than ditching it altogether even though they usually have been severely burned by the more classic approach. If someone is trying to serve God to the best of their ability, it may be beneficial to focus on that and not their approach.

golden,
false
bad character traits also are inherently not an aveira
yet in some cases we can say that can even be worse than

The same dichotomy exists with regard to Zemirot on Shabbat. Some “zingen zemirot” while others like in Baltimore “zuggen Zemirot”. The Young Israel movement held that a service with decorum was attractive to young people. Others like The New Haven Chazzan” obm. were zoche to update and modify the standard Tefilah and enliven it all the while maintaining the dignity of the service.

Golden,Etc.
And what of musical Kinos ?
that as well or you would agree that better to cancel them

Nebech.

Davenen and maybe selichos are song to camouflage them not to be understood by the malachim to stop the kitrug.

“They didn’t do this in Europe ”

Didn’t do what? Waste their time pre selichos hocking ah kup online?

Probably true though don’t you worry, I’m sure there were drey kups wasting time then too

Even if someone will come and say that they have been inspired to teshuva, somehow, by selichos concerts, there are limits; ths Torah isn’t hefker, and playing instruments while we bemoan out state of distance from Hashem in sinfulness, simply shows that the people involved do not even know the translation of what they’re saying.

Inspiration is important, but temporary…ask these same people how the coming year was, or even how their yom kippur was…if they’re being honest, they’ll probably say they had their typical boring yom kippur and fell asleep during davening.

A great cause of boredom and the feeling of a need to innovate comes from simply not knowing what they’re saying when they’re forced since childhood to sit in shul and spout random Hebrew words that are difficult to read because they’re not in the everyday siddur, which they also find boring because no one ever bothered to teach them what they are actually saying.

Avira

“if anyone’s hocking a kup, it’s people who come with reform-esque innovation and then get upset at people who dislike mesorah being trampled on”

I don’t think you know what hocking ah kup means. And there’s Noone here (as far as I know) who started this,reform esque innovation nor is there anyone here who cares about mesora (nor for that matter is anyone trampling your Mesora , frolicking selichos aren’t your cup of tea? Me neither ! don’t go problem solved this isn’t some aaveira that requires your tochacha)

All there is is a trouble maker looking to stir machlokes. Nothing more nothing less .

I agree completely with your last paragraph.