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This is the simplest, and yet most complicated issue I have come across. And it comes down to two viewpoints, which, let’s be honest, are probably more shaped by whether we’re parents or singles than by some deeply held ideological standpoint.
And the solution is basically down to who would suffer more, with abvious allowances being made for their respective situations.
Is the shidduch situation difficult enough to justify in-term shidduchim? Or is it simply a matter of convinience. If the former, then the OP is wrong, if the latter, they’re more likely to be right.
And secondly, are the kids deeply damaged by occasionally losing a teacher mid-term? Or not? And is it an issue the schools continually struggle with, or deal with comfortably enough?
I don’t know the facts on both sides. I daresay most of you can only really, at best, have knowledge of one side, at worst, neither. And even if you have covered both sides, I would guess you’re more strongly biased towards your current position, probably as a parent.
So basically, what I am trying to say is that much of the strength of feeling here is prbably misplaced, and that much of this ‘debate’ is typified by those with knowledge of, and biased towards, one side, facing off against somebody equally well versed in the facts of the other side, and equally ignorant with regards to the opposing postion. And that people would do well to recognize this before making bland, strident proclomations.
NE, way to insult everyone in the discussion by saying our values are shaped purely by bias.
I can’t speak for anyobe else, but anyone who knows me would, I believe, not think my life situation puts my interests in the direction of my opinion here.
I similarly don’t think it’s fair to dismiss anyone else’s opinion as based on negius.
There is actually a third side to this situation………..
Economic Reality Check…from the school’s perspective.
When we were first married, Mrs. CT Lawyer taught first grade for two years at a local day school. She finished the second year and gave birth to our eldest child two weeks later.
She was a stay at home mom, B”H we didn’t need her income. 25 years later, when our youngest was in high school, wife decided she missed being with children and applied to teach 2nd grade at the same day school The same family runs the school, the son of the previous previous director is now menahel. My wife has a teaching certificate, classroom experience and a Master’s Degree in early childhood education.
She didn’t get the job, the Menahel explained to her: We want young female teachers who will get married, get pregnant and leave. Teachers who are through having babies, gain seniority and expect more than starting salaries (yearly raises, benefits, etc.) Illegal, yes, but who’s going to take this to court and ruin the school/Rabbi’s reputation.
The irony is that in 1964, when I turned 10 (youngest child), my mother A”L with 10 year’s public school teaching experience and a Doctorate in Education applied for a teaching position in the New Haven Public Schools. The Superintendent told her that she was the most qualified for the job, but he only hired young Yale Wives, because they either left to have babies or their husbands graduated and they moved on. He didn’t want mature married woman who’d stay 30 or 40 years until retirement gaining tenure and salary increases. Mom took a position in a neighboring town and 5 years later when the Superintendent was gone, she was hired as a Principal and stayed for 25 years. When she retired they were able to hire 4 teachers for the total she was earning each year.
I don’t think the kids have any problem with teachers dating and getting married during a school year. I think sometimes parents project their own feelings onto their children.
My children are now dealing with this problem as I am the Zaidy. When my daughters were in elementary school, I brought this point up to a few Gedolei Hador, who felt that having a newly married man learning in a new environment, would take away from the maylah of his learning as a zechus and practical start of a marriage. This lesson should be taken in account by all newly married men. It might not be the best advise to change yeshiva’s, even if it means getting less support from the shver.
CTLawyer
If your wanted she could have sued the superintendent she would win and the district would have had to pay big time.
Abba_S
NO she could not have sued and won. Did you miss the year, 1964. Sexual Discrimination in hiring was NOT illegal back then.
A few months back, I interviewed for a teaching position in a Bais Yaakov. The principal told me that she is very wary of hiring single girls, for the precise reason that they get engaged, get married and leave in middle of the year, and it wreaks havoc on the continuity of the students’ learning.
She told me that she wanted to make it part of the contract that the job is a yearlong commitment, but when she asked a Rov, he told her that the halacha is not on her side; a teacher is allowed to leave during the year. (I am not validating or contradicting the veracity of this- just repeating what the principal told me.) She maintained that it was still a matter of yashrus, and a teacher should not leave her students stranded like that.
She then told me that she had had this conversation with two single girls the previous year, both of whom had promised her that should they get married during the year, they would not leave until the end of the year. Sure enough, both of them got engaged and married within a month of each other, and they both moved to the same place. One teacher, keeping her word to the principal, drove in every day, even though it was quite a distance. The other one abandoned her promise and left in middle of the year.
The principal was naturally angry about this, and therefore asked me if, in the event I took the job and got married in middle of the year, I would commit to staying despite the difficulty. I answered in all honesty that I would hesitate to take the job in the first place under those conditions, but, if I would take it, I would absolutely 100% honor that commitment. I was brought up on the principles of yashrus and emes, lifnim mishuras hadin.
CTLAWYER
Member
Abba_S
NO she could not have sued and won. Did you miss the year, 1964. Sexual Discrimination in hiring was NOT illegal back then.
POSTED 1 HOUR AGO #
Ahh, the good ‘ole days!
CT Lawyer & Joseph
Yes you are right 50 years ago it was legal to discriminate against women. In fact Blacks were just getting the rights to vote down south back then.
What I meant to say was if it happened today your mother could have sued and won.
I know of one girls school in brooklyn that makes the girls sign a contract for the school year. The school has no problem accommodating their time off required for chasuna preparations and sheva brachos, however, they do require a one school year commitment.
apushatayid- my school did that, I don’t know if you’re referring to the same one.
Actually, at the wedding of one of my closest friends, our elementary school principal was there. Another one of my friends taught in that school. The principal was walking around saying “IY’H by you” to all of us, and my friend whispered to me, “Notice how she didn’t say IY’H by you to me…”
In the end, my friend got engaged in April of that year and didn’t get married till well after the school year.
If the girl marries and moves to Lakewood bus fare is $26. per day or $130 per week. Her salary is $250 per week after taxes it’s $175 so she’s working for $9.00 a day? Would you do it ?
Where did you get those numbers from?
To answer your question, I would never sign a contract for $250/wk.
Oh, I’m not saying I would do it- just that I would not commit to such a job in the first place. It is completely unethical to give your word to something and then break that word- especially in this case, since the principal did not want to hire her and only did at the insistence of the girl that she would not leave.
The other solution- which, by the way, a friend of mine put into practice- is to remain in that city until you complete the school year. My friend married a boy who was learning in Monsey, but they found an apartment near where she was teaching so she would be able to complete her achrayus to her employer and her students. I was very impressed with her-and her husband for being a mentsch.
Dash
These teachers are paid between $10,000 – $17,000 per year. At $10,000 for 10 months is $1,000 per month. Four weeks to a month equals $250 per week.
When they sign the contract it’s for the annual amount $10,000 which looks like a lot of money so they sign. You don’t realize until you get your first check how little you are getting after taxes.
Tech. 20
The solution is for the yeshiva to help the newlyweds get a subsidized apartment in the community together with a Kollel where the husband can learn.
“To answer your question, I would never sign a contract for $250/wk.”
dash – seperate from the rest of this conversation, i think that is a bit of a harsh statement. in life there are situations where you are lucky to have anything, and you can hurt for someone in that situation, or wish better for them, but the better response would be to be grateful that you have never had to sign for that price, and pray that you never have to.
i know you were speaking to these healthy, intelligent girls and not the general population, but knowing people in awful life circumstances i reflexively cringed at the comment. Some people would sign for anything if they knew it would come regularly. Never stop counting even your smallest blessings.
whether or not you feel these girls should be signing for so little, and that is a valid thought – well, that is a whole nother half to the conversation
technical – no words. you sound like a true bas yisroel.
Syag – I’m not saying your points are not valid. But let’s say you were a single girl, and you signed a contract not to get engaged until the year was over. The year passes, and it’s summer time, and you don’t get a shidduch that summer. Then you signed for another year, and again, summer passes without a shidduch. You know your parents have turned down many offers during the year because you refused to think about getting engaged until summer, and offers are starting to become less frequent. Would you still be absolutely committed to staying the entire year, no matter what happens? I’m sorry, but I really doubt it. Especially if you know an older single or two, or your siblings had a hard time in shidduchim. And maybe I’m just selfish, but I think it’s downright irresponsible to just push off a shidduch because of teaching, as important as teaching is. And how disturbing it actually is for children is debatable. I wasn’t a child that long ago and I don’t think that one or even two teachers leaving in a year is that unsettling, especially if children are given plenty of warning before the wedding. (To be fair though, different children handle change differently, so maybe I am wrong about this.) As for people taking teacher’s jobs just because there is nothing else to do….well that’s another story and I agree with you completely on that one.
And to all the people saying about husbands staying in local kollels…that is the husband’s call, not the wife’s. That has nothing to do with girls “in the freezer”.
$250 week to teach my children, grandchildren?
In a day when we pay the cleaning lady $100 for 4 hours, the kid who weeds and cuts the lawn gets $20 hour it is a complete outrage that we pay our Morot starvation wages.
cij – i apologize because i am answering without even reading your post. I got to, “But let’s say you were a single girl, and you signed a contract not to get engaged until the year was over. “
i never said, implied, or hinted to such a statement.it’s both a ridiculous statement, and insulting to think i would say that. if the rest of the answer is based on that premise than please reread the posts.
i stopped reading the thread because there was alot of that reflexive – “take what you think you heard and disagree”, or “assume the chareidi lifestyle is being attacked so jump all over it” attitude. i reopened it now cuz i saw you name 🙂 but it seems to have gotten so convoluted that asking people to respect their commitments to children has turned into a defense of an imagined attack on the shidduch system.
whatever.
Syag – “I got to, “But let’s say you were a single girl, and you signed a contract not to get engaged until the year was over. “
i never said, implied, or hinted to such a statement.it’s both a ridiculous statement, and insulting to think i would say that. if the rest of the answer is based on that premise than please reread the posts.”
Really? Because to me, it sounded like you were supportive of such an agreement, by what you said here:
“We do have a school here (maybe two) that had a policy that any single girl who wanted a job had to sign that she was committed to finishing the year. The girls had a choice, never did anyone think it was a request not to date or get married. It was a request to be committed to the children in your charge. take it or leave it, in august. We should have more of that but too many people in the other schools seem to believe that committing to the year means we don’t want them dating.”
I did read the last sentence in this post, but I’m not quite sure how one gets engaged without dating. And if one gets engaged, and married, how that wouldn’t result in them not finishing the year, unless they stay local, in which case there is no issue. As I said, whether or not the husband will decide to stay local til the end of the year is completely up to him – not the girl he dates. Also, you said that they had a choice, but you seemed to imply in other posts that if they got married and consequently left that would mean they were not committed.
“i stopped reading the thread because there was alot of that reflexive – “take what you think you heard and disagree”, or “assume the chareidi lifestyle is being attacked so jump all over it” attitude”
In a thread like this that’s bound to happen. 🙂 I try not to “take what I think I heard” but maybe my interpretations of your posts was off, and I apologize.
“i reopened it now cuz i saw you name :)”
Wow – I’m touched!! 🙂 🙂
i stopped reading the thread because there was alot of that reflexive – “take what you think you heard and disagree”, or “assume the chareidi lifestyle is being attacked
I don’t know if you think that’s what I was doing, but I certainly wasn’t intending to.
I think you identified the problem clearly – the students suffer when the teacher gets married and leaves.
What I don’t have a clear picture of is what precisely you think can and should be done about it.
My first year of teaching, fresh out of high school I was paid around $8,000 for the year. I know it sounds pathetic, but its the truth.
Syag – Let me clarify, I’ve worked for less than that but I wouldn’t make a commitment for that amount.
Everyone has a point of view here. The school principal (who does not want to be busy hiring staff during the year), the “single girl” who is likely using the job as a placeholder until she gets married and can move with her husband to Lakewood and the parents who wish some semblance of a routine in the classroom for their kids. Each sides perspective probably changes depending on where in the school year we are, how old the students are and the relationship between the teacher and school.
Looking at this from a different angle, I know girls who would drop someone who they felt would encourage them to renege on a committment and I know guys would would stop seeing a girl who would do the same. it says something about a persons character that they would do something like that.
What about the kids?
isn’t there a halachic issue here: the morah is a kablan, and thus cannot renege on her commitment to work the whole year for a flat fee. If you make such a contract as a long-term employee, then you usually have to abide by it in halacha. What is the logic that a shidduch is a good enough reason for a kablan(is) to stop work in the middle?
Zogt_Besser
A Morah is no different than any other employee that took a job and left in the middle. His hand is on the bottom. Any additional EXPENSE can be deducted from the worker’s pay. If the employer hired a sub at the same pay rate then there is no monetary claim just a claim that she didn’t honor her word.
I don’t think that you can consider a Morah as an independent contractor (Kablan) the relationship is employee by all standards.
Please note she is not a slave as that was abolished back in the mid 1800s, at least in the US. In the Roman Catholic Church they used to have nuns who swore an oath of poverty and taught in their schools is this what you want?
On the other hand, WOULD YOU ALSO REQUIRE THE PRINCIPAL TO TAKE OUT A LOAN IN ORDER TO PAY THE TEACHING STAFF when there isn’t enough in the yeshiva’s bank account? After all he/she signed the contract too. This is not as rare as you may think, is there a thread about this?
As far as a contractor leaving in the middle of a job it happens all the time. Hopefully you didn’t pay him for the whole job and held back some money. Otherwise you are going to be chasing him forever. Good luck trying to collect even if you win a judgement.
Abba-
Of course a morah is not a slave. you are also correct that if a sub is found, then the morah who left does not have to pay the school back. But every single morah signs a contract in September that she will work that year and be paid X amount in total– it is not a “freelance” job by the hour, but a commitment to stay the year. She is not a Poel that gets paid by the hour and can leave whenever. If you really believed that, then shouldn’t any teacher be allowed to quit at any time for any reason? Of course not, because a teacher is hired to work for the whole year, and is thus a kablan. see a similar case here: http://businesshalacha.com/en/newsletter/finish-job
Now, you could argue that a shidduch is a good enough reason for a teacher to break her contract, but I dont see how a teacher isnt a kablan.
I’m not a posek and can’t speak to halacha and wont. Under the law, employment is “at will”, meaning an employee may leave when they want and employer may let an employee go whenever too.
Zogt_Besser
If she came an hour late would she get her full pay? If the employer dictates the hours she is an employee. If it’s by the job then she is a contractor.
Does she have a MORAL OBLIGATION to fulfill the year? Yes she does, but is she financially obligated, the answer is no.
Please do not rely on me and contact a Posek if this is anything other than in theory.
You are missing the point! You must allow the girl to marry and the married to have their babies. It just requires good management in the yashivas. The public schools in America have no problem with this issues because they use substitute teachers. The reasonable way to do it
1) Have the teachers sign contract for the year to teach. They can get married or have babies within the contract. New mother can get the time they need with substitute teachers. The new wives will have to fulfill the contract for the year after they are married.
2) BUT, the yeshiva has to fulfill their side of the contract, like paying them on time. If not, they have the legal and halachic right to consider this a braking of the contract and can resign.
Common Scence
The Public Schools don’t have this problem because they pay $40,000+ per year.plus benefits.yeshivas pay half that amount.
You want the yeshivas to be more efficient. But are they? A typical yeshiva class is 25-30 students per class if the average tuition is $400.00 per student per month, the yeshiva gets $10,000-12,000 per month. per class. Assuming two teacher one for Hebrew one for English at $2,000.00 per month that leaves $6,000-8,000.00 per month or $60,000-$80,000 per year, per class for “overhead”. Where is the money going to? Not to teachers salaries.
A better solution maybe the Morah would not have signed the contract if she is seriously dating someone. She started dating in October and got engaged in January and get married in March or April,leaving
only 2-3 months.
If there are 30 students in her class and each student’s parent contributed $100.00 as an incentive to stay to the end of the year. I think for $3,000 tax free she will stay .
If you have long engagements this problem is moot.
Look at many chasidim with long engagements and the couple living where the Kallah lives. No freezer anywhere in sight. And no girls Shidduch crisis either – one of the reasons for the long engagements — no one is so desperate to finally get married, and many boys are actually still too young so they drag out the engagement.
And most teachers teach half a day only, so despite tons of prep especially the first year they can try to get additional part time employment — which needs to be considered when looking at their salaries although it remains petty.
“The public schools in America have no problem with this issues because they use substitute teachers.”
There is one significant difference between the public school system and yeshivas. The yeshivas and their teachers operate according to halacha. This means the yeshiva consults their Rav as does the teacher who may wish to leave during the school year. The public schools operate lihavdil according to local, state and federal laws and the binding contracts signed between the teachers union and school districts as well as the contracts between the members and their unions.
“I think for $3,000 tax free she will stay”
It would certainly cover 3 months of commuting costs even if she would move to lakewood with her husband.
This is the first time I’ve heard of this issue. In my community, teachers get engaged one after the other. No havoc wreaks. A girl gets engaged, and resumes teaching. Even when getting married, there is a 2 week break for the newlywed. After that, life resumes. Then again, maybe it’s a chassidish thing. ( After all most engagement periods range from 5-10 months)
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