Free Government Programs

The first one you should know about is the best and most important one. It’s called the freedom to live off the product of your own work. This significant freedom is offered as a free program by our government, and is wildly better than what the governments of the shtetls offered.

There was no communism in the Shtetl, so in that regard we are the same.

Thanks Squeak. gov. programs are here to help those who seriously need it. funny that some zip codes in neighborhoods we know have the most banks, the biggest money rollover and the highest foodstamp and programs rate….

use the programs if you NEED them, but not out of “it’s free so take it” attitude which leads you to a train wreck in the end of the day

“[T]he freedom to live off the product of your own work” is the same. But I guess the manners are the same.

Nothing is free. It’s paid for from taxes.

I assume you are talking about programs such as welfare, food stamps, WIC, SCHIPS, etc. These are very popular even though one could argue they are accepting charity from the non-Jews.

One program that costs nothing to participate it is called JOBS. The government is a leading employer. Generally particpants in this program do quite well.

dolphina: Are you blind? I specifically wrote that any Jew who is QUALIFIED for any government program should take full advantage and apply for every penny he is QUALIFIED for. That not only is not gezel but it is a Mitzvah Rabba to take every penny into Jewish hands from the goyishe ganovim in the government.

And I hope you don’t like that. If your taxes go up, that’s between you and the IRS. I am going now to look for some more government programs I can apply for and qualify from taxpayers. And please never be moichel since I neither need nor wish for your forgiveness. If you have a problem with that, go speak to your local Congressman.

dolphina,

iced did say “eligible”. if your “eligible” whats your problem?

come on – yes your taxes fund programs. would you rather it fund some black’s programs – who get a lot more programs than any person in BP or Lakewood. At least be happy that your “siblings” can also benefit. And I don’t/never did receive any benefits – I am a real middle class family – I can’t afford many foods or other items that people on food stamps/state insurance/…. can but I am still happy that they have what to live on. As long as it is done honestly – there is nothing wrong with it. Especially today when it is impossible to find jobs and when you do find a job – you can’t live off it anyway.

Iced said “That not only is not gezel but it is a Mitzvah Rabba to take every penny into Jewish hands from the goyishe ganovim in the government.”

I’m saying this with a full heart and conviction.

When those “ganovim” come to pogrom us out of the country..I hope they come for you first.

Mitzvah Rabbah to take every penny? The Protocols Of The Elders Of Zion really are true!

crisis: I also find it tellingly ironic that you found fault with calling ganovim a government which taxes people to death — especially Jews who on average have more income AND who pay through their bloody noses for a public education they don’t utilize while they are denied funding for their private education even though they are taxed for education — while at the same time you saw no need to find fault or voice any protest against “dolphina” above calling Jews gazlonim who QUALIFY for programs and using them. (Since he says it raises his taxes — which is at best a nebulous claim, as the Federal government hasn’t raised taxes since 1998 despite entitlement programs costs having gone through the roof since that time — and taxes are not raised when another person joins a program.)

Calling a Jew a ganov because he receives assistance he is fully and legally 100% truthfully eligible for is okay with you but calling a government who redistributes wealth a ganov is not okay? Especially considering the government is taking a lot more taxes from Jews than it is benefiting them in entitlement program distribution?

Why would you rather the government fund minorities — who are on these programs on a much much much higher rate than Jews — but deny the same benefits to Jews?

Please share what Gadol says its OK to take government money in the US (As opposed to other countries where the law is differnt) instead of working

Iced, your argument is somewhat valid only if the U.S. imposes a dhimmi-like “Jew tax” or a Czarist-like collective tax. Do you really believe this? Got any evidence for it?

Iced, this argument: “Jews pay more taxes per capita than the rest of society, on average, and we should not be shy about accepting money and benefits that Jewish taxes are paying for.”

I fully accept that a taxpayer who meets h/her obligations under law is entitled to benefits under law, but not that “we” (Jews) have a collective entitlement because of the extra-high “Jewish taxes” that we pay.

There is a distinction between legally entitled to and morally entitled to.

You can choose not to work and be legally eligible.

To anyone to whom the distinction is unclear, there is nothing more to say. One word of advice – those who do not see the distinction perhaps re-think their attitudes towards those who they perceive to be ‘less’ observant than they are, as their perception of their own observance might be a tad bit skewed.

dolphina (and zdad) – Once again I agree with you that many posters have given good support to your distate for them and their way of life. It just hurts me that you aren’t able to see how similar your attitude is to theirs. When someone posts that there are government programs, the first response from those who are anti-chareidi (or whatever) is the assumption that they are loafing, fixing books and dishonest. I am not trying to argue with you, there are so many idiots out there doing just what you discribe but why is your assumption about them any more “halachically appropriate” then their assumptions.

Please don’t lower yourself to that and please don’t be so accusing and hurtful to those of us who have chosen to live a chareidi-ish life but are NOT doing any of the things you speak of.

Some of us are working very hard and raising our kids with the minimum and have accepted government hep during those years that we couldn’t manage on our own. Getting a $1000 raise meant losing $10,000 in benefits and now not making ends meet at all. Do I fix the books to continue getting the benefits? No. Do I chose to take lower pay so I can party on all those extras the governemnt gives me? No. I turned down a better (much better) paying job because I didn’t want my kids waking themselves up in the morning and putting them selves on a bus. I took a lower paying job so I can be home with them in the summer since we can’t afford to send them to camp and I don’t want them home alone. I took a lower paying job so that I could pick them up after school instead of sending them on a bus to an empty house. Do I owe you any explanations? No, but you have embarrassed me even more than the government applications do and I needed to defend myself to get a shred of my dignity back.

You think that everyone in a black hat acts like that? Maybe it’s time to realize that there are other communities and cities out there (WOW – really?) where those types of behaviors aren’t rampant, or aren’t even the norm.

I am not denying the validity of your claims against SOME people who should know better, but PLEASE don’t stoop to their level by assuming everyone in THEIR mode of dress is doing the same garbage either.

(thanks for listening)

iced -“Morals are solely defined by the Torah. Non-Jewish “morals” have no role to play in a Jews life.

And if a legal monetary benefit assists in Limud HaTorah, there can be nothing more moral than engaging in that.”

You’re wrong. Many Gedolim disagree with the Lakewood way of life. I’m not saying the Lakewood way of life is wrong, but it’s not the only Shitta.

Iced- I posted this 5 months ago:

That is what YWN reported about askanim saying on their visit to the White House about 2 days ago.

And I went on to say how we also cannot ask for money from the government to be given to the schools of other religions.

This is prompted by your last comment.

Farrocks and Iced, both of you make it sound as though there’s collective “Jewish taxation” in America for which collective “Jewish benefits” should be extracted. Is this so, or is it a question of lifestyle choices?

Both my husband and i work full time, fall in the middle class, cant afford many things, but making enough so that we can continue paying our bills. We arent eligible for any programs (b”h), we pay the high taxes, and everything is on the books.

Being that we are honest people and we report and pay all our taxes, it hurts when many friends and aquaintances “brag” about all the programs they are receiving while they receive money from their jobs under the table.

Of course i’d prefer that my tax money go to my brothers/sisters who really need it, but if you were to go through the books (and under the table books) you would see that unfortunately there are many, many, many people who hide their income and just take cuz it’s “free”.

There is nothing wrong with discussing benefits with others. And nothing wrong with helping others obtain benefits.

Furthermore, I find it deeply troubling that some people simply assume (falsely, in most cases) that others do not report all their income when applying for benefits. For one thing, families with income are entitled to government benefits. To assume and claim that someone failed to list their income when applying, is simply motzi shem ra.

And, finally, I do hope those who oppose these benefits are not hypocritical, and when filing their IRS and State income tax returns decline to claim the Earned Income Tax Credit or the Child Tax Credits and other tax credits offered by the government. Many of these tax credits people receive even if they don’t owe taxes or it exceeds the amount of taxes they pay (usually referred to as “refundable tax credits”.) They get a check from the government for it.

Well, who here forgoes claiming tax credits they are entitled to?

Anyone?

farrocks – as i mentioned earlier, i prefer that my tax money go to my brothers/sisters rather than others who just sit back on their lazy behinds.

An assumption that the two are not one and the same will probably turn out false.

I hope as many less wealthy yidden as possible collect money from the government so that I get as many mitzvos of giving tzedaka as possible, via the taxes I pay going to these less fortunate families.