Home › Forums › Bais Medrash › For PF to Vicariously Rant Endlessly About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA
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June 19, 2014 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #1045830benignumanParticipant
To add to Frumnotyeshivish’s points. Bekiyus if one does not know how to learn is of little value today (b/c seforim are widely available). The theory behind the modern Yeshiva system, as I understand it, is that we go slow in order to teach the Talmidim how to learn. As they get older they will be able to learn faster and faster until they can start covering a lot of ground while maintaining a high level of understanding.
In other words, the extreme iyun today is meant to be temporary. For example, many boys will learn very slowly in America and then go to the Mir in Yerushalayim and finish two large mesechtos a year.
June 20, 2014 12:49 am at 12:49 am #1045831Patur Aval AssurParticipantWidely available seforim doesn’t help all that much if you don’t read them. Very often you won’t even know that there is some yedia that you are missing that you should be looking up. In his Teshuva about women wearing Tefillin, R’ Hershel Shachter mentions how with the proliferation of Otzar Hachachma and Bar Ilan, everyone thinks they’re a baki. He says over the joke that the Yerushalmi (in the beginning of the fourth perek of Demai) says that an am ha’aretz has ???? ??? ???? because on Shabbos he can’t use the computer so people will realize that he is actually an am ha’aretz.
June 20, 2014 4:30 am at 4:30 am #1045832rationalfrummieMemberwhich mod changed the title? big skoyach cause thats hilarious!
100, thank you.
June 20, 2014 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #1045833benignumanParticipantPAA,
You are missing the point. I am not saying that bekiyus isn’t important, rather I am saying that constant chazarah and perfect recall is not AS important as it once was.
I have seen that line from Rabbi Shachter. This doesn’t take away from my point that bekiyus when you don’t know how to learn is not worth very much.
June 20, 2014 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #1045834Patur Aval AssurParticipant“bekiyus when you don’t know how to learn is not worth very much.”
You can’t know how to learn without bekius. See the quote that I posted from R’ Yaakov Kamenetsky http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/for-pulsing-flower-to-rant-about-iyun#post-523328
June 20, 2014 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #1045835☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantYou can’t know how to learn without understanding what you’re learning.
So I guess nobody knows how to learn.
June 20, 2014 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #1045836Patur Aval AssurParticipant“You can’t know how to learn without understanding what you’re learning.
So I guess nobody knows how to learn.”
I’m not sure how your second statement follows from your first.
June 22, 2014 3:17 am at 3:17 am #1045837benignumanParticipantPAA,
I believe you are either misunderstanding me or misunderstanding Reb Yaakov. Reb Yaakov is referring to a “Talmud Chochom,” like a Rosh Yeshiva, who is giving shiurim or publishing chiddushim without being well versed in Shas and poskim.
I am referring to a bochur in high school and early bais medrash who is just getting going in his learning career.
June 22, 2014 4:05 am at 4:05 am #1045838Patur Aval AssurParticipant” Reb Yaakov is referring to a “Talmud Chochom,” like a Rosh Yeshiva, who is giving shiurim or publishing chiddushim without being well versed in Shas and poskim.”
NOt at all. He was talking about the difference between how young lads learn nowadays and how young lads learned in Slabodka.
June 22, 2014 4:21 am at 4:21 am #1045839Patur Aval AssurParticipantPele Yoetz (Section entitled Yesod; this quote might actually be more relevant to Roshei Yeshiva unlike the quotes from R’ Yaakov):
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June 24, 2014 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #1045840Patur Aval AssurParticipantOk so here’s the actual text of the Gur Aryeh that I mentioned before:
??????? ???? ??????? ??? ?????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ?? ??? ?? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ??????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???? ?? ???????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ?? ???????? ??????? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? (?”? ??? ??.) ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?? ????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ?? ???? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ?”? ?????? (???? ?, ??) ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?’ ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???????? ??????? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ??????? [?]?????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ?’ ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? (??? ?)’???? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ???’ ?? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ?? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??????? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ??? ????? ????? (??? ???.) ???? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ???????? ???? ?????
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June 26, 2014 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #1045841Patur Aval AssurParticipantShulchan Aruch Harav Hilchos Talmud Torah 2:1:
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June 27, 2014 2:46 am at 2:46 am #1045842Patur Aval AssurParticipantAnd now for the Kli Yakar’s rant (Amudei Shesh Amud Hatorah):
?????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??????? ??? ????? ???
????? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ?? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?? ?? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???????
???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ?? ????? ?? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ??????? ????? ??????? ???? ????
???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ??????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ?? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???
????? ??? ????? ?? ???????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???????? ???? ?????? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???????? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ?? ????? ??????? ???????? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ?????
June 27, 2014 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #1045843Patur Aval AssurParticipantShu”t Shevet Halevi 2:57:
???? ???? ?? ???? ???”? ????? ??’ ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????
????? ????? ?”? ?????? ??? ?”? ?”? ?????? ????? ????’ ?”? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????’ ??? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???????? ??????’ ????? ???? ??”? ??? ??? ?? ???? ??”? ??? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ????????? ?”? ?”? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ??”? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ???????? ????”? ??”? ??????? ???? ?????? ???? ????”? ??? ??? ????? ???’ ?”? ????? ???? ??????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ???????? ????? ???? ??”? ?????????, ????? ???”???? ??”? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ??”? ???”? ??? ???, ??”? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ?????????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?’ ?”? ????? ??????? ?”? ?”? ????”? ????? ?????? ???? ??”? ??? ???? ??? ??”?
Interestingly, he quotes the Orchos Tzadikim that I quoted way back in the beginning, so the Plumber’s contention that I was taking the Orchos Tzadikim can now be addressed to R’ Wosner.
June 27, 2014 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #1045844Patur Aval AssurParticipantSo to update my earlier summary:
Shabbos 63a with Rashi
Eruvin 48a with Rashi
Sanhedrin 42a with Rashi
Avodah Zara 19a with Rashi
Avodah Zara 19a with Rashi (there are two different gemaras on 19a which I quoted)
Medrash Mishlei 10
Orchos Tzadikim Shaar Hatorah
Maharal Tiferes Yisroel Perek 56
Maharal Nesivos Olam Nesiv Hatorah Perek 5
Maharal Chiddushei Aggados Sanhedrin
Maharal Gur Aryeh Parshas Vaeschanan
Maharsha Bava Metzia 85a
Maadnei Yom Tov Hakdama
Kli Yakar Amudei Shesh Amud Hatorah
Chayei Adam Hakdama Acharona
Even Shlaima 8:2
He’aros ??
Even Shlaima 8:7
Shulchan Aruch Harav Hilchos Talmud Torah 2:1
Pele Yoetz Asupa
Pele Yoetz Girsa
Pele Yoetz Yesod
Ohr Yisrael Iggeres 27
Dor Revii Hakdama
Chofetz Chaim Likutei Amarim perek 4
Chofetz Chaim Likutei Amarim perek 5
Seridei Eish letter
Shu”t Mishneh Halachos 8:247
Shevet Halevi 2:57
R’ Baruch Ber Leibowitz
R’ Yaakov Kamenetsky
R’ Elazar Menacham Man Shach
R’ Moshe Chevroni
R’Aharon Yehuda Leib Shteinman
R’ Michel Yehuda Lefkowitz
R’ Yosef Shalom Elyashiv
June 30, 2014 2:00 am at 2:00 am #1045845Patur Aval AssurParticipantR’ Aharon Lichtenstein (“The Conceptual Approach to Torah Learning: The Method and Its Prospects”):
“‘The Brisker’, Rav Eliyahu Feinstein once observed to his grandson, the Rav, ‘are very impressed with fine sevarot. But as far as I am concerned, if one has forgotten a mishnah in Ohalot, he cannot be regarded as a lamdan.'”
June 30, 2014 2:04 am at 2:04 am #1045846Patur Aval AssurParticipantAlso from there:
“Rav Yosef Baer Soloveitchik (of Jerusalem) once told me that Reb Hayyim, at one point, had two daily sedarim, each lasting six hours, and in eacho of which he covered eighteen blatt. When I remarked that this did not quite consort with the view I had entertained of him or his tradition, he responded, ??? ??? ??? ????? ??????, ‘That all came later'”
July 1, 2014 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #1045847Patur Aval AssurParticipant“so the Plumber’s contention that I was taking the Orchos Tzadikim can now be addressed to R’ Wosner”
Sorry, that should say “so the Plumber’s contention that I was taking the Orchos Tzadikim out of context can now be addressed to R’ Wosner”
July 2, 2014 12:14 am at 12:14 am #1045848Patur Aval AssurParticipantExcerpts from the Hakdama to Lev Aryeh:
?? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?????? (??????? ???
??? ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ??????? ?? ??????? ???? ???????
????? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? ??????? ?? ???????
?? ???? ?? ???? ?? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ??????, ????
(??????? ?????
July 2, 2014 12:52 am at 12:52 am #1045849Patur Aval AssurParticipant???? ????? ????? ?????? “?????” ????? ????? ????? ????? ????
???? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ???????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????
????? ??? ??????? ???. ??? ?? ?? ????? ?????. ?????? ????
??? ?? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?????. ?? ????????
???? “??????” ?”???? ?’ ????” ??????? ??? ????? ???????
????? ???? ???? ??? ?????. ????? ?? ??????? ??????? ??
????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??
??????? ?? ????. ???? ?? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??????
???????? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ??????
???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????
????? ?? ???????? (?? ?? ??????????) ?????? ????? ???
???????? ???? ????? ????? ??. ?????? ???? ????? ??????
???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ?????
July 2, 2014 1:58 am at 1:58 am #1045850Patur Aval AssurParticipant??? ?????? ????
?? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??????
??????? ??? ??????? ????? ??????? ????? ??????? ???????
??? ???? ?????? ??????? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????
????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?????
????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ?????
???????? ???? ?????? ???? ??????? ?????? ????? ???? ??
???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ?????? ??
????? ???? ?? ???????? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ?????
??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ?????
July 4, 2014 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #1045851☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant??”? ??”? ?’ ??”? at the end.
July 6, 2014 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #1045852Patur Aval AssurParticipantDaas Yochid:
I would point out that this thread is not against Iyun per se. It is against certain forms of Iyun and extreme focus on Iyun at the expense of Bekius. That being said, the Teshuva that you quote does not specify what he means by ????? ?????. (It’s also interesting that the Rambam that he quotes doesn’t mention iyun.) Also, it is not necessarily a stirah that ????? ????? is good for people struggling with certain issues, yet the proper way to learn would not involve heavy focus(or even perhaps any focus) on this – to quote R’ Chaim Brisker in reference to learning mussar “If a person is sick we prescribe castor oil for him. However, it is certain that if a healthy person ingests castor oil he will become very sick. If that vile wretch meets you, and if you are sound in spirit and soul, if your consciousness and character are still whole and intact, then occupy yourself with the Torah, drag him to the study house. This is the most effective and tried remedy in man’s ongoing battle with his evil impulse. However, if you are spiritually sick, if a fit of madness has seized hold of you, if some psychic anomaly has put forth its diseased tendrils in your inner world, then you must use more powerful drugs, those that are designed for the very ill – the remembrance of the day of death. We in Volozhin, thank G-d, are healthy in spirit and body, are whole in our Torah; there is no need here of castor oil. If the scholars of Kelm and Kovno feel compelled to drink bitter drugs – let them drink to their hearts’ content, but let them not invite others to dine with them.” (The Rav The World of Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik)
Regardless, see my next post for a quote from R’ Moshe about learning.
July 6, 2014 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #1045853☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantIIRC, the Chazon Ish compared yeshivos to hospitals.
July 6, 2014 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #1045854Patur Aval AssurParticipantHaskama to ?????? ??? ???? ?????:
??? ????? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ??????? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????
??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ???????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ?? ??
??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ??????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ??? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????
???? ??? ?????????
????? ???? ??????
July 6, 2014 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #1045855☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantNot exactly a rant against iyun.
July 6, 2014 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #1045856Patur Aval AssurParticipantThe part where he says that you have to learn at least 200 blatt a year or the part where he says that it’s not shayyach to know the dinei torah or to produce gedolei torah from limudei iyun?
July 6, 2014 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #1045857☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantThe part where they say that learning the hundred blatt is aside from the limud iyun with shiur.
July 6, 2014 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #1045858Patur Aval AssurParticipantAgain, I never alleged that one shouldn’t learn any iyun.
July 6, 2014 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #1045859☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantOkay, so I guess the thread is mistitled.
July 7, 2014 12:06 am at 12:06 am #1045860Patur Aval AssurParticipantThis thread was started in response to PulsingFlower’s statement:
“In general I am opposed to the over-emphasis of iyun. I’ll rant about that some other time though. I don’t want to hijack this thread.”
And this is exactly what I have been ranting about – extreme focus on iyun before acquiring a broad knowledge of Torah. So perhaps you are right and for clarity’s sake the thread should be retitled “For Pulsing Flower to Vicariously Rant About the Over-Emphasis of Iyun through PAA” (hint hint mod).
Sorry, I had to abbreviate to get it under the character limit. -100
July 7, 2014 12:38 am at 12:38 am #1045861Patur Aval AssurParticipantShkoyach Mod 100. Apology accepted.
July 15, 2014 12:52 am at 12:52 am #1045862Patur Aval AssurParticipantTime for the Shelah’s rant. ??”? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ????
(It’s going to be in 10 parts)
??. ????? ???????? ???? ????? ???????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ??????? ?? ?? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?? ?? ?’ ?????? ?? ?? ????? ?????
July 15, 2014 12:54 am at 12:54 am #1045863Patur Aval AssurParticipant??. ???? ?? ?? ??????? ??????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ??????? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??”? ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ?? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????
July 15, 2014 12:56 am at 12:56 am #1045864Patur Aval AssurParticipant??. ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?????
July 15, 2014 12:58 am at 12:58 am #1045865Patur Aval AssurParticipant??. ????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ???????? ????? ?????? ??”? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ??”? ?? ?? ?????? ??????? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???”? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ???”? ?? ????? ?? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? ???????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?’ ?????
July 15, 2014 12:59 am at 12:59 am #1045866Patur Aval AssurParticipant??. ??? ?? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ???????? ?????? ??????? ????? ????? ????? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ??????? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ?’ ??????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ?? ?????
July 15, 2014 1:03 am at 1:03 am #1045867Patur Aval AssurParticipant?. ??? ????? ????? ??????? ?”? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ???? ????? (???????) [???????] ?? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??”? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???????? ?? ???? ?? ?? ?? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ??????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ???? ?????? ???????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??”? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???????
July 15, 2014 1:05 am at 1:05 am #1045868Patur Aval AssurParticipant??. ?? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ??????? ?????? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ???????? ??????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ?? ???
July 15, 2014 1:08 am at 1:08 am #1045869Patur Aval AssurParticipant??. ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ???????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ??’ ??? ?? ?? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ???????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ???”? ??????? ???? ???????? ??????? ?? ??”? ?? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ??????? ???????? ????? ?? ??”? ??? ??? ?????? ???????? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ???????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ??????? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ???????? ??? ??????? ??? ????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??”? ????? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?? ??’ ???? ?? ??? ?????? ??????? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??
July 15, 2014 1:09 am at 1:09 am #1045870Patur Aval AssurParticipant??. ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??????
July 15, 2014 1:11 am at 1:11 am #1045871Patur Aval AssurParticipant??. ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ????”? ???? ??????”? ??????? ????? ??? ?????? ??????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?? ?? ????? ????? ????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?’ ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ??’ ??? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ???”? ???? ??????”? ????? ???
July 15, 2014 1:12 am at 1:12 am #1045872Patur Aval AssurParticipant??. ?? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ????
July 15, 2014 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #1045873Patur Aval AssurParticipant??. ????? ??? ???????? ?? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ??????? ???????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ??”? ?? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????, ??? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ??????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ?? ??? ?? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ??
July 15, 2014 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #1045874Patur Aval AssurParticipantVavei Ha’amudim Amud Hatorah Perek 5:14 (son of the Shelah printed chelek 4 of the Shelah):
??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ????????? ??”? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ??”? ??????? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ???? ?? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ?? ??????? ??????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?’ ?????? ????? ??????? ???? ??????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ????
July 15, 2014 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #1045875Patur Aval AssurParticipantThe Toldos Adam (perek 3) quotes the Yaavetz as saying:
??????? ???? ?? ?????? ?’ ????? ?? ???? ??”? ????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ??”? ???? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ???????? ??????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?’ ??????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ??????? ????? ???”? ?? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ??????? ??? ?? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ????? ??”? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???’ ?
July 15, 2014 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #1045876Patur Aval AssurParticipantAnd he quotes the Sifsei Yeshanim as saying:
???? ???? ??”? ??????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??????
?? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ???
????? ?????? ???? ??????? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????
???? ?????? ?????? ?”? ????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????
??? ???? ?? ??? and then quotes the Vavei Ha’amudim which I quoted above.
July 15, 2014 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #1045877Patur Aval AssurParticipantChavos Yair Siman 124:
(The entire Teshuva is geshmak but since it is rather long, I am only quoting the end of it.)
??? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???????? ???????? ?? ??? ??? ???”? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ??? ????? ???????? ?? ????? ??? ??????? ?? ???? ????? ???? (???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ???”? ???? ??? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?? ?”? ????? ??? ?? ?’ ???? ???? ??”? ???”? ???? ????? ??? ?????”? ??? ????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?”? ?”? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?”? ???? ?”? ?? ?”? ?”? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?????”? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ??”? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???”? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ??????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ???) ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??”? ???????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???”? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ??????? ??????? ?? ???????? ???? ?”? ????? ?????? ??”? ?? ?? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ???? ???? ??????
????? ???? ???? ????
July 15, 2014 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #1045878Patur Aval AssurParticipantPri Megadim in a letter printed in the beginning of Orach Chaim:
??? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ????”? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ??? ?? ???????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??”? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???”? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??”? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ??????? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?’ ??? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ????????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ??”? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ?’ ???? ??”? ?? ?? ???????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??”? ????? ?????? ?? ??????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ??????? ??????? ?? ???
??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??”? ?????? ?????? ???? ???????”? ?????? ?? ?????? ????????? ?????? ???”? ??????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???”? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ??”? ????? ???????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ????? ???????? ???? ????? ???? ?”? ????? ???? ??? ???????? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ??”? ??????? ??????? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ??”? ????? ?”? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??????? ?? ??”? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ??????? ?? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ???????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??????. ???? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???????? ????? ?? ??????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??”? ??? ??? ????? ??’ ??? ????? ??????? ?? ??????? ??”? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ????”? ??? ?? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ??????? ??? ?????? ?’ ??? ???????? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ???????? ?? ????? ?
July 15, 2014 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #1045879Patur Aval AssurParticipantAnd in the follow up letter he reiterates:
???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ?”? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?? ??? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?”? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?’ ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ?? ??”? ?? ???????? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ?????: ?????? ?????? ?’ ???? ??”? ??? ?’ ???? ?’ ???? [????] ?”? ?”? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ????? ???????? ????? ???? ?? ??”? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ????????? ???????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ??????? ????? ???
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