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Could I come back into bais medrash yet??
MODs – when I get back into bais medrash, I too will copy and paste everything I come across at (random and) abandon.
I think it might be safe.
The Rambam also says that gaavah is the one midah where you have to go ?? ??? ??????
It’s actually one of two midos. The other being anger.
Although now that you have raised this stirah, I am quite interested in an answer. I’ll go look at the nosei keilim.
Young talmidim should try their utmost to use the years of their youth, the prime years to grow in Torah learning, to acquire vast amounts of knowledge
I don’t really understand this because the Gemara (chagiga 14a) says ??? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ????. I know that he is not making it up because there is special emphasis given to limuda d’yankusa. (Also in the mishna in avod-niar machuk etc..)
Knowing the shakla v’tarya of a Gemara is barely even skimming a sugya. It is superficial to the extreme – as far as knowing the sugya is concerned.
It worked for the baalie gemara, it works for me.
For many years I’ve been making a point, and was recently gratified to find it in published letter by R’ Shimshon Pinkus.
He says that it is rare for a bachur to succeed by trying to work out of the yeshiva system.
And he says there’s really no reason to! Put aside the system of learning, its reasons and justifications. Any serious bachur can find enough time in his day for any seder he’d like – bekius, nach, halacha – without taking away from the yeshiva schedule. How long does it take to learn (and even chazer) daf yomi?!
So no one can blame their lack of knowledge on the system.
Certain Yeshivos encourage this, and very few discourage it.
That’s ridiculous! The point of any educational system, including the yeshiva system, is to educate. Saying they can learn if they want, does not cut the mustard! That’s like saying why teach math for the regents, if the student cares he can learn it himself!
Also, daf yomi? That’s one daf a day. That is way below many yeshiva bachurim’s potential. To finish shas once while in yeshiva is not that impressive.
no lets keep this going it’s loads of fun@!
Back to Bekius vs Iyun, should the Defense rest its case or need more evidence be brought?
Time will tell.
It worked for the baalie gemara, it works for me.
You are seriously off your rocker, that’s all I can say. So Ravina and Rav Ashi just had the words of the gemara they recorded ?
How should bekius (at least your understanding) be taught ? You just sit and read! And use basic skills you already have. Iyun needs training. The only question you can have is if they give enough time. That we can debate.
To finish shas once while in yeshiva is not that impressive.
Do we have the same Shas ? If you learn (and even chazer) the daf for and hour or two day, would you be ready to be tested on Shas ? Once again, I spend my time among many extremely smart, talented Talmidei Chachamim, and the idea that finishing Shas with decent retention is not a big deal is simply laughable.
Which does leave us – as I agree – that everyone is capable of much more bekius knowledge, and it should be done.
when we see what five of the leading Roshei Yeshivos of their generations actually had to say on the matter.
And yet their lesser peers, who worship their every word, oddly enough did not change the way their yeshivos learn! And wait – in their OWN Yeshivos it’s not so much different. Hmn…
So Ravina and Rav Ashi just had the words of the gemara they recorded
If they had more to say, why didn’t they?
Rav Chaim said about the nosei keilim on the Rambam that the Rambam never meant most of the chidushim that they say in the rambam’s name. No difference here. (Yes, I know that R’ Chaim also said that the nosei keilim still count as torah. If you could explain that line to me, I would be very happy.) Either way, just becasue the chidushim count as torah, does not mean that it is the best use of one’s time to study that type of torah.
How should bekius (at least your understanding) be taught ? You just sit and read! And use basic skills you already have. Iyun needs training.
So you are saying that we should design the curriculum of the yeshivas based on the fact that rebbeim will have no job? Not a primary concern.
If you learn (and even chazer) the daf for and hour or two day, would you be ready to be tested on Shas ?
No. That’s why I would do it WAY more than 2 hours a day.
Yes, I know that R’ Chaim also said that the nosei keilim still count as torah. If you could explain that line to me, I would be very happy
Let’s see. Could it possibly be related to the idea you’ve rejected, and I’ve quoted an explicit Ohr Zarua about, that (some?) Rishonim wrote with more than just their own sechel ? [As far as nosei keilim – I’m only aware of this idea being applied to Rishonim. I doubt anyone would say it too far down the line].
So you are saying that we should design the curriculum of the yeshivas based on the fact that rebbeim will have no job?
No, I’m saying nothing of the sort. Simply explaining why its not part of any curriculum per se. I already said that I agree that time allocated is up for debate.
While it is not my job to justify why people don’t follow the Roshei Hayshiva, I would venture to postulate that there is simple reason: The style of Iyun is enjoyable…
I was not talking about the hamon am, but clearly referred to the Roshei Yeshiva setting policy. Despite the call of the gedolim you mentioned, most do not follow suit – nor are their own yeshivos so different.
So Ravina and Rav Ashi just had the words of the gemara they recorded
“If they had more to say, why didn’t they?”
I hope you’re not serious. Put aside any of the chiddushim of today that you’re not happy about. Or from the past few hundred years, for that matter. Did all of the Rishonim make up silly pilpulim too? ‘cuz there’s a heck of a lot that they put into the gemara’s words which is not at all explicit too. And don’t start with that nonsense that they weren’t medayek in their lashonos – you’re just showing that you’ve either never learned or never understood Rishonim at all.
PAA – I assume you’re showing from your last quote that he felt you need to learn the whole mesechta to properly understand. I think the implication clearly is, though, that he’s specifically referring to learning in depth. Superficial knowledge of dafim, just to be able to reference a question from another gemara on your own, without needing to see the tosafos or rashba do so first, is in no way related to that quote.
On a related matter, what should the goal of learning be? What should one try to achieve? I am not asking how to learn, but rather what is the goal.
And that quote is from….
PAA: I believe that a Rebbe in KBY is famous for saying something along the lines that the Olam HaYeshivos hold of Daas Torah for R’ Shach’s every word-except his opinion on what he knew the most about, Talmud Torah!
why do you keep posting mekoros to back up your position long after people have stopped debating you. mima nafshach, either you’re just right, or people find you so annoying that they don’t engage you in conversation anymore.
why do you keep posting mekoros to back up your position long after people have stopped debating you. mima nafshach, either you’re just right, or people find you so annoying that they don’t engage you in conversation anymore.
PAA: I’m enjoying your collection of maarei mekomos. Keep them coming!
With regards to how yeshivos learn: In Gateshead as in many large yeshivos two or of three sedorim are bekios. The other iyun seder still has much value even if bochurim could be learning even more bekius. Why?
Most men, after leaving full-time learning do not do iyun. Whether it’s the daf or your own schedule or shiur it’s normally bekius or much closer to bekius than iyun. So if we wouldn’t learn one iyun seder in yeshiva then most of us would never know that geshmak that is a Steipler or Reb Chaim. We would also not learn how to learn a rishon properly.
I do think it’s a fair critique that bochurim don’t cover enough ground in bekius (i.e. those two sedorim), much less allocate proper time for chazuroh. Sugyos properly absorbed as such a relatively young age will remain embedded for life.
I’d like to make a few points:
1. This is an age-old discussion. The gemara of “oker harim” and “sinai” implies that both methods are valid.
2. One can make the case that a “sinai” in the days of abundant seforim and electronic resources – while remaining important – is less so.
3. The modern day yeshivos (for good reason) focus on making learning fun (read: “geshmak”). The sources above are seemingly focused on the objectively best method to acquire genuine torah knowledge. They may agree that an “eis la’asos laShem” type mentality applies nowadays.
4. Generally, quantity vs. quality is always a legitimate discussion. Both are necessary. Either one when taken to an extreme is silly.
5. One can acquire, review, and retain plenty of new information within an iyun-type seder, showing that the two ideas have vague boundaries.
This is ridiculous. This thread was obviously meant to be a rant, and instead it’s an argument. Almost a discussion.
R’ Chaim Oizer Gurvitz Shlit”a spoke in Gateshead Yeshiva last Friday night for 50 minutes about the Ma’alah of Limud BeIyun and how that is the Ikar Limud of Torah, and he had some very choshuve mareh mekomos!! (Gemoros, Rishonim, Chasasam Soifer, Gr”a, R’ Yerucham)
He said over that when he was in Brisk, he was one of 10 Bochurim selected to join a special va’ad from R’ Yoshe Ber zt”l, and the first four days he gave them over a Derech HaLimud he learnt from the Brisker Rav. The first thing he said was that “Learn Iyun all day – Morning, Afternoon, Night seder” – but “Learn a daf Gemara, Rashi, Tosfos every day Bein Hasdorim”!
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