Footsteps, ?????? ??????

I’ve actually talked with Lani Santo. meh. I’m not convinced that they have a neutral agenda. I think there is a strong current of strong dislike (I hesitate to use the word hate, because I don’t think its quite that) among their leadership, who are {I think} all ex-chareidi themselves.

I would say that their intended focus has been on the individuals, not on tearing down the entire chareidi world. That’s ironic, because I think their biggest “dislike” is for the leadership, peer pressure and control without which many of those who leave the chareidi world would have stayed.

So they claim to be focused on the needs of individuals who are legitimately in pain or doubt or cannot stay where they are, but their are emotionally and intellectually drawn to attack the key structures.

Its a bit disingenuous. And that counters the needs they try to meet, and which UJA funds.

Which leads to the indisputable facts that there are too many who have left, are leaving or don’t have the courage to leave who are not bad people but have had horrible experiences or are simply not able to maintain the chareidi lifestyle, and have the consequences that follow.

They have needs as people, as Jews even outside of Kiryas Yoel, Lakewood, Monsey, New Square, or Boro Park. Assuming Footsteps is the wrong organization with the wrong agenda, there remains a need, outside of the chareidi community (which they don’t trust), for an organization which if not actively trying to get them back in the fold, is at least ideologically neutral. That doesn’t exist right now. The need has to be filled.

Project Makom is an attempt to keep some of the charedim in the fold (Its more complicated for many)

I think many of the Anti-Kiruv-nicks have been so hurt by some in the frum comminity that they are so angry a them , Its a tough battle. The Main propnent who has written a book, was expelled from new square and is not allowed to see his kids. He harbors much bitterness and even crashed his daughters wedding

zahavasdad – thats terrible.

Golfer and Sparkly – you don’t know the circumstances. When someone is not allowed to see their kids, there usually is a very good reason and we have a chiyuv to assume that there was a good reason and not to add to the Motzi Shem Ra people spread about the Frum world! By writing such things, one increases Sinas Chinam!

But not allowing him to see his children at all?

Who thinks up these things?

My parents divorced when I was nine. At the time, we were not frum. Shortly after they separated, my mother became frum and my sister and I joined her.

My mother tried to find a yeshiva for me to attend. For two years, I attended Ohel Moshe, in Bensonhurst, a school that catered largely to Russian immigrants. There were a handful of frum students there, butthe vast majority of the school was not. After two years, she tried to get me into a more mainstream yeshiva.

One well-known prominent yeshiva told her that they’d be willing to take me, provided that I have absolutely no contact with my (still not-frum) father. Even having no other options, she turned them down flat.

The irony of it all is that not too long after that, I ended up estranged from my father for about three years anyway. We eventually reconciled when he remarried and we have a very good relationship now. But that separation (and the ability to especially now, as a father, look back on it and understand it how it affected me as a child and him as a father) gave me a much better understanding of what that yeshiva demanded of my mother.

It’s probably a good thing that I don’t know the name of the administrator that my mother met with that day. It’s bad enough that I robbed myself (and my father) of three years of our relationship. For a yeshiva to demand that, as a condition of attendance, we cut ourselves off from him for six years (the amount of time I had left in school) plus however many years afterwards (who says we would have reconciled after that long?) for the rest of our lives, is simply monstrous.

We’re not talking about a man who beat or abused his kids. We’re not even talking about a man who would deliberately force his kids to violate halacha against their will. He was just a man who grew up in a non-observant home and continued in that as an adult. But, apparently, they felt that he would be so corrupting, so polluting of his childrens’ souls, that it would be better to cut off the relationship and sever a man from his children. How horrible is it to suggest that a man is so harmful to his kids that he shouldn’t have any contact at all? When I think about it as a father, the very idea makes me both sad and angry.

My sister and I are both shomrei Torah U’Mitzvos today. We both raised families where Yiddishkeit is important and central, and we did it while maintaining a healthy relationship with our father. I’m normally the sort of person who avoids “I told you sos,” but I would *love* to be able to go back to this administrator and show him just how wrong he was.

The Wolf

Joseph

fair enough.

How about the idea behind it

here from their website:

“…but many Charedi Jews who want to transition to a more Centrist or Modern Orthodox community face hurdles that prevent them from doing so (whether cultural, educational, or simply feeling unwelcomed). Some of these people end up leaving religious life altogether.

Makom will offer one on one mentoring so that participants can meet a new friend in a community to which they previously had no access; classes to discuss questions and variances in Jewish hashkafa and law; meetings to share experiences…”

To tell you the truth, Im not sure what to think. It definitely rubs me the wrong way but being that the problem they address is real, and the only alternative I know of is footsteps, I think this may be a necessary evil.

zahava’s dad- according to Halacha, it is completely assur to believe something like that or even to read it in the first place, and certainly, to repeat it. It is Motzi Shem Ra on Am Yisrael. We don’t blame Jews for anti-Semitism. It’s almost Tisha B’Av. Let’s find some positive things to say about Am Yisrael!

I can’t argue that what you posted may be true in some shuls, but I cannot bring myself to post a general statement like that, especially so close to tisha b’av

Moderators: – you beat me to it. Thanks! I do think that some of the other comments should be deleted as well, since they say negative things both about specific people (the family of the guy in question who I’m sure doesn’t appreciate it) as well as the Frum world as a whole – since the implication is that this is what the Frum world is like and people are right for being anti-Frum people.

zahavasdad – their thinking that its better for them to keep something than nothing. so they believe what their doing is good.

ubiquitin – mo also keeps shabbos and kosher.

WolfishMusings – i VERY much agree with you. i would also be upset. why is it their business that your dads not religious?

lilmod ulelamaid – their causing sinas chinam by not allowing another jew just because his not religious to see his children.

I can’t believe what I’m seeing here. How can we call fellow yidden ??? ???? If they chose not to be shomrei Torah Umitzvos, that’s terrible and unfortunate, but who are we to judge? Is this the ???? ????? our community is famous for? I think not. Better we should try to be understanding of people who have been through a lot of pain. Not only are they still human beings, they are still our brothers and sisters, regardless how far they have fallen. I wish I could invite all the Footsteps people to my Shabbos table, and simply show them love, nothing more. That’s what our frum world should be doing more of. Just my opinion.

The comments are toward the leaders in the organization who are helping the members leave Torah behind, not the people who are suffering.

“We don’t blame Jews for anti-Semitism”

U’mip’nei chatoseinu galinu meiartzeinu?

Our aveiros are indeed to blame for the misfortunes that befell us.

BlueSoul32 – they need to be strict here otherwise it could end up like yahoo answers chasvichallila.

Is there any evidence anywhere that Footsteps “pull others away from Torah”? I haven’t seen that. According to what I know, they do no such thing. In fact, from what I heard, several of their staff members are religious (MO). If we’re going to be maligning other Jews, we should have the evidence to back it up. Anything else is beyond disgraceful and a tremendous chillul hashem.

I just checked their website. I cut and pasted as follows:

Footsteps is the only organization in North America that assists people who wish to leave the ultra-Orthodox community.

There were also several Article Headings maligning the Frum Community.

Their website says they help people who WISH to leave, not people who left.

I definitely feel compassion towards them and I’m sure that everyone else hear does as well. There is no reason to think otherwise from anything anyone wrote here. You can think that someone is wrong or even bad and still feel compassion towards them.

I’m sure I will get attacked over this.. but I’m going to do it for “knowledge” sake. So I’m guessing I’m going to be labeled an “eruv rav” by what I’m going to state:

I am not religious. I made this choice as an educated, mentally stable, not criminal adult. My reasons are personal and I will not discuss them here. It should be noted that those that choose to not live a frum lifestyle are not necessarily criminally insane or mentally unstable. As one poster said, some of us suffered so much trauma at the hands of “supposed” G-d fearing individuals, and people who claim to be “frum” and “yeshivish” that we were simply unwilling to remain frum. And claiming to be G-d fearing, and yet abusing your children or your spouse, is completely the antithesis of what Yiddishkeit is supposed to be.

Additionally, I want to note that a jew that chooses to live a not frum lifestyle, no matter the extent, is NOT a goy. You can claim that they are lost, off the derech (which is another term I don’t like, because if we compare ourselves to generations past, we are ALL off the derech), but we are not goyim. I was born a Jew, and whether or not I live as a Jew, I will die as a Jew.

Someone actually had the nerve to tell my son that his mother (me) was a goy because I was not frum anymore. My son thought that because I was a “goy” according to this person, that he was one also. One should be very very careful what terms they use.

I contacted Footsteps when I first got out, because I needed help processing what I was dealing with. The abuse, alcoholism, neglect, and then public shaming, the humiliating shunning, the lack of any support and the sheer volumes of rechilus and lashon hora spoken by the RABONNIM of the community, let alone my own “family” almost killed me. Footsteps was referred to me by someone who wanted to help.

To say that Footsteps was not a help would be a significant understatement. There was no encouragement, and if I wanted or needed help, I would have to go into the city, which was not an easy feat.

They would not speak with me over the telephone, and the only resource they would give me was one where again, I would have to go into the city to speak with them. That’s not to say they weren’t going to help me, but again (I’m stressing this for a reason) they would not help unless I was there in person.

I managed to make it, survive, and thrive even, in spite of their not being willing to help or provide counsel over the phone or via email. But, I wouldn’t refer them to anyone who desperately needed assistance. It was a worthless experience, and a waste of previous time and energy.

I’ve done my research into Footsteps. While I personally believe that Joseph is being a little contradictory using words like “yemach shemo” and essentially shaming those that use the Footsteps program, is a bit harsh, to say the least, I also believe that to some extent, he has a point. Footsteps is not the organization that they publicly claim to be.

puhlease

I may have missed it, but where did anybody criticize or shame those that use footsteps?

Joseph was pretty clear “yemach shmos who run the place and/or organize any of their activities, attempts to shmad yidden into goyim”

Syag Lchochma,

I am doing very well thank you. I don’t know what blog you are referring to… But I am more than happy to communicate privately with you if the Moderators are willing to mediate an email address exchange.

That’s entirely up to them.

I have thrived. I’m no longer part of the abusive community or family I was. I am thank god far far away and happy that way.

I won’t tell you that there arent things from the past that I don’t miss, because that would be a lie, and one thing that I promised myself I would not do any longer is play into the “lies, manipulations and word games” that were perpetrated in the community I was part of once upon a time, however, what I do not miss, and never will, is the shaming part that went along with trying to get someone to come back to the “fold”. Shaming someone will only push the person further away, and at the end of the day, the fact is IF that person comes back it’s because they can’t make it on their own, not necessarily because they wish to.

That’s not a reason to be religious.

PuhLease,

I fell badly about what you have gone through but I’d like to make a couple of points.

1) At one point I was extremely sick, I was rushed to a local hospital where I was badly misdiagnosed, that wrong diagnosis almost cost me my life.

When I was brought into another hospital the Doctors overseeing my care actually stated that in this case they feel I should sue the pants off of them because the people who saw me in the first place should not be practicing medicine.

Yet I still see Doctor’s, in my case pretty frequently.

I know in my heart that medicine as a whole is beneficial it is “true” even if some Doctor’s messed up and used it wrongly.

2) When one goes on an extended road trip they sometimes get lost, they some times take detours. However the objective is to reach the final destination.

As such they are on the road.

If the pull off and decide to turn back, to cease driving they are off the road.

The fundamental tenant of Yiddishkeit is that we are alive for a purpose to reach “deveikus” in Hashem to overcome the Yetzer Horah.

The roadmap for that is the Torah.

We are all imperfect, that is why we are alive to meet the challenges the Yetzer Horah throws at us, to battle them, and to overcome them.

As long as we are trying we are on the road.

When we let those challenges win and turn around we are off the road.

Hi Ben Levi,

Thank you for your response. Allow me to counterpoint…

1. I was in the same boat as you. Instead of being rushed to the Emergency Room, I was maligned and told that there was no other excuse for my behavior other than to be addicted to narcotics.

It took me passing out, being misdiagnosed and then wrongly medicated, having my heart stop, and extreme measures taken (Thank goodness my DNR was overlooked, too) for me to get the medical attention I desperately needed. I was then diagnosed with a potentially terminal illness that has taken me years to deal with having and getting somewhat under control.

Does that mean that I no longer see doctors? Does it mean I no longer see people? Of course not. In fact, I have made my living serving others. However, I no longer see THOSE doctors or go to THAT hospital, and I am significantly more wary, suspicious and hesitant to see any medical professional that I don’t fully and completely trust unless I feel that my life is in danger, in which case I immediately request an ombudsman from the hospital or a medical advocate to speak with and for me.

2. I realize that this is a widely unpopular opinion, but your OPINION is that Torah is the road map for the map of life. If/when someone gets lost, they can pull over and stop their trip, they can take a break and regroup or they can ask for directions. IF when they ask for directions, they are again and again given the wrong directions, at some point, they will stop asking.

Regardless, thank you for your comments.