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i dont think we are allowed to eat fish that were bludgeoned (whacked on the head) but regular fish that basically flip around and choke to death i think is ok
I’m glad we’re not having fish for dinner today…
BS”D
No shechita rules at all as far as I know.
I have no idea how fish are killed for commercial processing, but in Europe we do not have fish stores under kosher supervision, and if we were restricted according to how fish are killed, we would not be able to eat any fish at all, even if we can see the fins and scales.
You can whack all you want or not, no rules; you don’t have to wait until they are dead dead or dead at all. The whacking is only to stun them so they don’t jump around so much.
Chazal say that fish are not like animals with regard to pain.
I’m going to make up an answer, probably totally wrong, but it sounds good to me…maybe becuase you don’t actually kill the fish by taking them out of water…the fact that they can’t live out of water kills them.
Yeah, I’m glad I didn’t have sushi tonight for dinner.
The real answer might just be: Because God said so…
Is this thread devoted to making me into a vegetarian??? 😉
A600KiloBear: funny- you gave me the impression your from the U.S…
“The real answer might just be: Because God said so… “
That is the correct answer, Jewess. The only question is why did G-d say so? We can try to figure it out until the end of time, but at the end of the day, because G-d said so is the only answer we need to know. I guess we are not meant to know everything. Even if fish did not feel pain as we do (and as far as I know, no fish, even the Talking One, has ever told us whether or not this is true), it still has to be scary to smother to death unable to breathe. The fact that they are flapping around kind of indicates to me that they are not so calmly accepting of death. And now, I will not be able to eat fish for a while.
will someone pass some mayo for a tuna sandwich all the fish talk made me hungry…
Mod, I needed to laugh now :).
back to the original question, it may be because the blood of a fish is kosher and does not need to be removed like it does in animals and fowl. not sure if this is the reason why slaughter is not required but maybe it is connected to this.
ames, because Tuna doesn’t look like a fish, it comes in a little can…
72- nice comeback…but it still reeks of fish!
noitallmr, dice in an onion, chop in some carrots and celery, toss in a few olives, add some pieces of sour pickles, sprinkle a little black pepper and {poof} no more fish smell.
Yeah but no tuna either!!!
i heard something very nice on this recently…
A man once have a nice little fish swimming around in a fish bowl, peacefully day after day, around and around. One day the man felt bad for the fish who had such a boring existence, and decided to take him out so he could “see the world”. He called all hos friends to watch, and promised them that when he took the fish out of the fish bowl, he would look more alive, because after all, it was sooooo boring in the fish tank, and much more exciting out side…
With everyone watching, he reached into the fishbowl and gently laid the fish out on the counter, and to his delight, the fish started jumping around, flopping this way and that!
“See, i told you my fish would much rather be out, look, he’s so excited!”
The fish flopped jumped and hoped for one full minute, and then collapsed, dead.
No, the fish was not jumping around, excited to ‘see the world’, he was gasping for breath.
No, i don’t have a good connection or reason about shchiecta, but the mashal is about a fish!! 😉
so sorry to hear…
twas heard as a mashal for us! We yidden sometimes feel it stuffy and crowed- we can’t do this, can’t do that, can’t go here, wear that…
and we want to go see the open world. We go, flop around and to everyone looking at us, it looks like we’re enjoying and having a blast. and maybe we are. for a short amount of time. because it’s not for us.
BS”D
I am from the US originally but no longer live there :).
ames, many kosher birds (ducks, chickens) eat insects & fish. And chickens raised in large poultry operations are fed meat byproducts.
this whole thread reminds me of the famous adage:
Give a man a fish and he eats for a day.
Teach a man to fish and…
you’ll never see him on Sundays.
72, so should I teach you howta fish?! 😉
What’s better then mowing a lawn and pulling weeds…
ames, chickens can be very aggressive (social hierarchies are referred to as “pecking orders” because that’s how chickens establish a social order in the flock). I wouldn’t be surprised if a chicken pecked to death would also be eaten.
The meat byproducts that are fed to factory chickens probably include poultry scraps too.
But it’s probably true that kosher birds do not eat other birds as a regular part of their natural diet.
A600KiloBear – Please may I correct you on one point. Your statement “In Europe we do not have fish stores under kosher supervision” is wrong.
Antwerp has several fish stores with Hechsherim so does London as well as other citires in Europe.
I do not know where in Europe you are based but I have been to many fish stores with hechsherim
anon, you’re right, my bad. BUT we don’t eat birds who eat other birds (do we?)
No, we don’t. The birds that are tamei include those who catch prey, such as hawks, owls, falcons, etc. There are other reasons that certain birds are not kosher for us, but those that prey on others top the list. I guess the Torah really teaches us the concept, you are what you eat (the nature of the beast, I mean).
An American investment banker was at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked.
Inside the small boat were several large yellow fin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them.
The Mexican replied, “Only a little while.”
The American then asked, “Why didn’t you stay out longer and catch more fish?”
The Mexican said, “With this I have more than enough to support my family’s needs.”
The American then asked, “But what do you do with the rest of your time?”
The Mexican fisherman said, “I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siesta, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine and play guitar with my amigos, I have a full and busy life.”
The American scoffed, “I am a Harvard MBA and could help you. You should spend more time fishing; and with the proceeds, buy a bigger boat: With the proceeds from the bigger boat you could buy several boats. Eventually you would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a middleman you would sell directly to the processor; eventually opening your own cannery. You would control the product, processing and distribution. You would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City, then Los Angeles and eventually New York where you will run your ever-expanding enterprise.”
The Mexican fisherman asked, “But, how long will this all take?”
To which the American replied, “15 to 20 years.”
“But what then?” asked the Mexican.
The American laughed and said that’s the best part. “When the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich, you would make millions.”
“Millions?…Then what?”
The American said, “Then you would retire. Move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take a siesta, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos.”
ha ha, 72!
BS”D
Yes, I should have qualified that with “in many places in Europe.” And even in Paris where I think there are stores with hechsherim the lists say clearly that certain species of fish can be purchased anywhere so long as you can clearly see the simonim (and they are clearly identifiable as X species).
Kosher mammals are primarily vegetarians. Kosher birds will eat insects, worms, and some sea life. When man tried to get mammals to eat meat parts that were mixed into their feed, they brought forth Mad Cow Disease.
Great story Mod 72
“When man tried to get mammals to eat meat parts that were mixed into their feed, they brought forth Mad Cow Disease. “
So THAT’S how it started!!!!!
oomis, that’s how it spread through the food supply. But that’s not how it started.
Itzik, that is true anywhere in the world. As long as you buy the fish whole though.
i dont have an answer but i think it is related to:
1. all the animals (not on the ark) were destroyed because they and the whole world including the land itself, became corrupted from the corruption of man. the fish ,in some sense, lived in a different world than man and were not influenced by his corruption. the fish were therefore NOT destroyed by the Mabul.
2. fish were always allowed to be eaten. animals were only allowed to be eaten after the Mabul
3. no fish has a trachea, which is one of the two simanim that have to be shechted
4. fish are not brought as Korbonos
what this all has to do with Shechita, i have no idea, i just have a feeling there is a connection
Ames,The big fish always eat smaller fish. Most even eat their babies. But are you sure kosher birds eat insects and worms? The kosher birds that we have the masora of eating usually eat grains and seeds. And if anyone knows for certain, of a kosher bird that eats insects and worms, please let me know what they are. Geese that eat frogs are not kosher. Kosher animals also eat grain, and grass ( unless the are given animal by-products in their feed) but that is not what they normally eat and those by-products don’t make the animal very healthy to eat. I never understood how Fish can eat insects, and worms and still be condidered kosher. Did you know a Barracuda is kosher? Not that I would want to eat, but I thought that was interesting.
Based on yoreh Deah, I would say that it has to do with the fact that no simanim to shecht. We learn this out from a pasuk. However, it’s bal tishaksu to eat them alive. I remmeber seeing stacks of kosher fish in the machaneh yehuda mall, out of water, still flapping their gills. I can’t believe they were too happy about the matzav. Kosher grasshoppers don’t require shechita either. Crunch crunch! The snack that smiles back. Grasshoppers.
You can’t see them smile when they’re dipped in chocolate 🙂
Jothar-
Grasshoppers whose consumption sound is “glug, glug” are also quite effective at bringing a smile to one’s face.
Here’s the actual source:
Yoreh deah 13. Taz #1 quotes the passuk Numbers 11:22 in Bahalosecha, which shows that fish just need to be gathered- the passuk uses “gathering” for fish and “slaughtered” for animals. You can eat them dead or do eiver min hachai as well. But u can’t eat them alive and wriggling. Sorry Gollum. Same with Mr. Crunchy Smiles the grasshopper.
“You can’t see them smile when they’re dipped in chocolate :)”
True. Pickled works, though.
Yuck, not only can I no longer eat fish, I cannot eat anything after those last few posts.
Did you know a Barracuda is kosher?
REALLY?????? I never heard that before.It has fins and scales???
i think i might have to leave out the gefilte fish on the menu this Shabbos… 😉
Ames, I grabbed the following off the OU website:
MEANING IN MITZVOT by Rabbi Asher Meir
Each week we discuss one familiar halakhic practice and try to show its beauty and meaning. The columns are based on Rabbi Meir’s Meaning in Mitzvot on Kitzur Shulchan Arukh.
Kosher Slaughter of Fowl
Kosher animals and fowl can be eaten only after shechita. Fish do not require such slaughter (SA YD 13:1). We have explained this in previous columns as follows: While our lower tendencies can be elevated and sanctified, as they are when we eat the meat, this has to be preceded by overcoming and subduing their lower, animal nature. This is done by slaughtering them, to cut them off from their dependence on their bestial vitality, and by draining out the blood which is the ultimate symbol of our lower nature.
Fish, however, live in a totally distinct environment. This reminds us of those talmidei chakhamim (Torah scholars) who are totally submerged in the world of Torah. Torah study and observance has the ability to elevate and sanctify even our basest tendencies. For example, indulgence in eating and sleeping are a mitzva when they contribute to Shabbat delight. Those fish that are kosher, which are susceptible of assimilation to holiness, do not require a demonstrative separation from their environment to become permissible.
While this explanation encompasses both animals (mammals) and fowl, actually there is a difference between them. Shechita of animals must include both the windpipe (the passage for air) and the esophagus (the passage for food). But birds are kosher even if the shochet severed only one of these two passages (SA YD 21:1).
According to one explanation in the gemara, this is because birds are an intermediate level of creation, between animals and fish. “Ovar Glila’ah learned: Animals, which were created from the land, require two signs [windpipe and esophagus]; fish, which were created from the water, require no preparation; birds, which were created from the mud, require one sign.” (Chullin 27b. The idea that birds were created partially from the land and partially from the water is found in Rashi on Bereshit 2:8 and 2:19.)
In a previous column we explained the difference between domestic animals (whose abdominal fat is forbidden) and birds and wild kosher animals (whose abdominal fat is permitted). One explanation was that “these animals have more freedom and independence than domestic beasts. Wild animals are completely free, while even domestic birds have the where- withal for freedom in their wings. Our tradition esteems this natural free state; the Yaavetz writes that the reason we have to feed our animals before ourselves is because by domesticating them we have deprived them of their freedom to provide for themselves (Sheilat Yaavetz I:17). More precisely, wild animals obtain their sustenance directly from the Creator, without human intervention. (See Rashi on Bereshit 8:11.) This same explanation can help us here, for birds exemplify freedom and independence even more than wild beasts.
Assembling these elements, we get the following picture: The greatest danger is for man to be enslaved to his animal nature. This is the state represented by domestic beasts. Sanctification can take place only after completely subduing this kind of connection to the material world, as represented by cutting of both signs.
A somewhat higher level of consciousness is where we are still limited to the world of physical reality, but we fully exercise our human freedom. This is the ultimate ideal in many modern ideologies; we see that this level has some value in Torah, but it is not the ultimate value. Even someone at this level is required to attenuate his connection to materiality, as represented by the single sign we sever in a bird. (We may point out that according to halakha, even birds should be slaughtered in both signs when possible.)
And the highest level is someone who manages to connect all his acts to the transcendence of Torah. Such a person is submerged in a completely different world where all of our tendencies are elevated and sanctified, and thus has no need to cut himself off from the world.
Yes oomis, Barracudas are kosher, they have fins and scales. Don’t let those sharp teeth scare you!!
Thank you, Jothar, for taking the time to post that incredible piece of Torah today. I found it fascinating, and enlightening.
i just had a tuna(with vegetables) sandwich with lettuce and onions on a toasted whole wheat roll.
now it is time to put up the gefilta fish for Shabbos.
i just had a tuna(with vegetables) sandwich with lettuce and onions on a toasted whole wheat roll.
Ditto with tomato on a toasted sesame bagel. You just cannot beat tuna sandwiches. They are the yardstick by which I measure the worth of a milchig restaurant. If their tuna is good, usually so is everything else. I ma still searching for a GREAT tuna sandwich. There used to be a restaurant in my neighborhood, which has since closed, that made the best tuna on rye. No one else has even come close.
I love ghoti!
GHOTI – now THERE’S a blast from the past, 6th grade to be exact!
what is ghoti??
Fish
Gh (“F” sound, as in enough)
o (“I” sound as in women)
ti (“SH” sound as in nation)
GH O TI = F I SH
This word was used in school, as illustrative of the idea that English is not always a very phonetic language.
I love goat with tea, preferably as an entree. for an appetizer , I still prefer fish
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