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Where there is fire there is FIRE
only in a place where Shabbos is disgraced (so says the Gemara)
I am having FIRE in 12 days time to devour my Chometz.
@147 why would you light your house on fire to burn your chometz?
Utah:- I am having fire on a big empty open space:- Being from Utah out in the West, you should be most familiar with many big empty open spaces.
@147 Well in Salt Lake City we do have these spaces with grass. But we call them parks. They aren’t empty. Also its a crime to light fires in them.
I’m also not aware of these big empty open spaces that you speak of. Can you be more specific?
Isn’t Utah the place where MBD tells the people who think Yerushalayim is for sale to run back to, before the mountain top opens wide and swallows you inside?
Can we please point out that mik5’s comment was absolutely disgusting? Someone was trying to point out (I think) that fires are R”L a too-common issue in our community and his response was “they have to have been Mechalel Shabbos”. That’s just crazy.
mik5: First of all, the Gemara doesn’t say that. Second of all, what makes you think that that is an okay thing to say?
How specific a place did he need to refer to for you to consider that offensive?
DY: Unclear, but it seemed pretty clear to me that the thread was referring to a specific incident, which was enough.
Chacham Ovadia said, in reference to fires in Israel, that “fires only happen in a place where Shabbos is desecrated.” Google it.
Shabbos 119:
Rav Yehudah brei d’Rav Shmuel): Fires are common only in a place where Shabbos is desecrated – “V’Im Lo Sishme’u Elai Lekadesh Es Yom ha’Shabbos…v’Hitzati Esh…v’Lo Sichveh”.
(b) Question: What does it mean “V’Lo Sichveh”?
(c) Answer (Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak): It will be at a time when people are not around to extinguish it.
I am waiting for your apology Sam2
mik5,
Eh, I don’t think Sam2 owes anyone an apology. If Rav Ovadia says something, that’s one thing. It’s not your place to say that a fire was caused by chillul shabbos. (Unless you consider yourself a Gadol Hador, in which case I apologize)
Sam2, do you find the Gemara’s statement to be offensive? If not, why is mik5’s comment any different?
There are many things mentioned in the Gemara that can’t be taken at face value. It’s not your place to give reasons or explanations for events based on what the Gemara says. Unless, of course, you are a Gadol Hador
jewish source,
Always?
Generally yes, unless the meforshim say otherwise. And I refering to the real meforshim, not the modern day Drs, theologians etc. who easily wash away any Torah with “it’s not to be taken literally”, “not to be taken seriously”, “doesn’t apply today”, “modern society has advanced..”
mw13: It might be true. It’s still a very rude thing to say. But mik5 has no way to know it’s true. Fires happen. They exist. Sometimes accidents happen. But it’s not always due to Chillul Shabbos.
I was once at a funeral R”L of a 12-year-old who got hit by a car. Some retarded Menachem Avel, who thought it would make the bereaved father feel better to know that his child was perfect, said (I remember this close to verbatim), “Don’t think that your son did anything wrong, CH”V. The Gemara says that when a child under Bar Mitzvah dies, it’s only because of the Aveiros of the parent.” Needless to say, the Avel was not very comforted. Now, the statement might also be true, but in context it is a disgusting and retarded thing to say.
Now that was a coherent argument. What you wrote before was basically just a broadside of invective. If you disagree with somebody, by all means feel free to say so. But a rational argument if far more convincing than a volley of insults. Now, I might not always agree to mik5’s opinions or (more often) with the way in which he expresses them, but do I think he’s shown himself to be honestly interested in figuring out what Hashem wants from us. Constructive criticism may sometimes be called for; but to just be nasty is, among other problems, counter-productive.
This is also a response to this comment:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/being-niftar-al-kiddush-hashem#post-609713
But really, sam2, I must admit I’m somewhat disappointed. Although you and I do not always see eye to eye, I have usually been impressed by the calm, rational nature of your comments. Watching you and DY calmly and rationally debate issues has been a pleasure. But a spate of your recent comments don’t seem to have up to your usual standards.
Besides for these tangles with mik5, there was also this volley of invective against DY:
And even this somewhat heated exchange with charliehall (especially considering the highly impersonal topic that was being discussed):
Don’t do it, Sam2. Don’t go to the dark side.
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