- This topic has 64 replies, 41 voices, and was last updated 10 years, 4 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Is there anything wrong Halachic or Hashkafic wise in finding out during pregnancy the gender of the child?
Why do people not do it?
Why do people not do it?
I don’t know the answer to your first question.
However, I didn’t want to know the gender regardless of the halacha*. I simply wanted to be surprised.
The Wolf (who, for the record, correctly guessed the gender of the first and third, but was completely wrong on the second one.)
(*Yes, I know that some people here will call me a rasha for doing what I want regardless of halacha. Too bad.)
We didnt do it, because it takes away the surprise of the moment. If you know beforehand, the actual birth is a difficult process, but the element of finding out its gender makes it that bit easier
wolf- that isn’t exactly regardless of halacha, rather despite reason you had your own…
I personally did, that is for JIC (just in case) the birth is Thursday or Friday and it’s a boy, the shalom zachor will be ready
:p> mbachur <d:
Then there are those Know-it-Alls who consider it their civil duty to inform you of the gender- based on the way you carry or other for sure “signs.” (which have no basis whatsoever)
it actually is a problem according to most. It has something to do with finding out the future, fortune telling, ect. I do know you can say there is a difference, but if you think about it you are trying to find out something that does not need to be known yet. If there is a need for you to know for some medical or other reason, the best thing to do is call your rav. And isn’t is so much nicer when it is a surprise? I always thought that’s the best part!
>O<613
it actually is a problem according to most. It has something to do with finding out the future, fortune telling, ect.
Two objections to this line of reasoning:
1. Do you listen to the weather forecast? If they tell you there is a 90% chance of precipitation or that it’s going to be cold tomorrow, do you believe them?
2. Even if you grant (although I can’t imagine way) that listening to a weather forecast is a problem, this is certainly better than that. With the weather, you are “predicting” the future. Here, however, you are determining the current state of something *right now.* You aren’t guessing if a baby *will be* a boy or girl but rather, what it is at this moment.
How is it any worse than looking at an X-ray to determine if a bone is broken?
The Wolf
someone i know recently asked their Rav and he said not to because you may slip and tell ppl. ppl go all the time without knowing and they are usually OK with a shalom zachor etc
someone i know recently asked their Rav and he said not to because you may slip and tell ppl.
And the halachic problem with telling people the gender (assuming that it doesn’t matter to you whether they know or not) is…?
The Wolf
Chayav’s parents still don’t know. 🙂
To The (Revered) Wolf,
You signed off, “The Wolf (who, for the record, correctly guessed the gender of the first and third, but was completely wrong on the second one.)”
What does “completely wrong on the second one” mean? In this case, what’s the difference between “almost right” and “dead wrong”?
The reason to “not know” is that you might start preparing for the baby before it is born. This is frowned upon because of “ayin Harah”. We wait until the baby is born healthy before we prepare for it, because we don’t want to give the baby an ayin harah. If you know you are having a boy, you might start painting the room blue, by the crib accessories, by the baby clothes, etc.
Surprise?
Its either going to be a boy or girl. If a puppy comes out that would be a surprise.
“but was completely wrong on the second one.”
Completely? There are only 2 choices. You were just wrong.
Most people I know who asked were told they could. I never did ask the Rov or the Dr., I just like the surprise element.
I wish I COULD have known when I was expecting, but routine sonograms were not done then. My kids tried to keep the secret from us, but one let it slip accidentally, the other was very careful, but I guessed, because of a subconscious slip made by one of them (they said something about a certain color not being to their liking for a stroller, and it kind of clinched it), and by the next baby, my kids showed us the sonogram. I see no reason not to know.
The only possible halachic issue that I can ever imagine, is if it would be a concern that knowing the sex of the baby would lead to a parent chas v’sholom wanting to abort, because the baby was the “wrong” gender. In frum circles that should not be a fear at all.
DAAS!
seriously, there is a midrash that says there are 5 things that wasn’t given for man to know; the day he’s going to die, and the gender of a child (I don’t remember the rest)
:p> mbachur <d:
In kollel, a Maggid shiur (very Litvish, Ponevezher) told us “Some people say you shouldn’t find out because hanistaros l’Hashem… ridiculous! If you can tell the gender with ultrasound, it’s obviously not nistar anymore. Besides, my in-laws wanted to know whether they should buy arbis or not.”
I would not want to know as a parent because it is the most exciting part of the birth. But as a grandparent I wouldn’t mind knowing but I never ask. If they want to tell it is up to the kids to let me know. It is a little stressful for the grandparents who have to prepare the shalom zachor if the mother goes into labor thursday night or friday.
mbachur – the day of Moshiach’s arrival, the identity of Moshiach
(don’t remember last one, but thanks for bringin up my point. That was what my rav told me when I asked)
Wolf – I was right about my first and last. Wrong 7 times so don’t feel bad (I bet you’re gonna tell me you don’t, right?).
And Aries- a puppy would not have been a surprise but a fifth boy was. To each his own.
reading the sex of a child from sonograms is subject to fallibility. It’s really hard to pick out the main difference, and mistakes can be made.
My good friend is a midwife and she says you can tell which moms know the gender and which don’t. According to her, the ones that don’t know are much more willing to work hard to get the baby out as quickly as possible. I think there is something to the surprise issue. We never ask about our babies. I’ve had boys born on Thursday and Friday and somehow we got a shalom zachor together on time.
Do you listen to the weather forecast?
Thats always been my argument. We are not attempting to control or change the future, just listening when someone attempts to predict what MAY happen. The 3 keys belong to H’ and only he controls. So whats wrong? My Rav told me ppl never knew the gender b4hand so why do I want to know? I said no one had the facility to know in the past, and I wanted to know for the reasons I will give below.
I personally did, that is for JIC (just in case) the birth is Thursday or Friday and it’s a boy, the shalom zachor will be ready
I did for the same reason. I also wanted to know longer in advance if I had to prepare a drasha at a bris. In the end almost all my kids were born on or over shabbos so I had plenty time for the shalom zachors.
reading the sex of a child from sonograms is subject to fallibility. It’s really hard to pick out the main difference, and mistakes can be made.
‘the main difference’? Or the only difference? How many do you know of?
‘mistakes can be made’; Someone was told they’re having a girl and they painted the bedroom pink and bought all girly outfits and stuff. She gave birth to a boy!!
mbachur – the day of Moshiach’s arrival, the identity of Moshiach
(don’t remember last one, but thanks for bringin up my point. That was what my rav told me when I asked)
Ummm do you have another screenname i don’t see your name in any posts
:p> mbachur <d:
First, its not predicting the future. The gender of the fetus is already determined.
We chose not to know. I would call it a “hashkafic” reason – I think it is definitely more exciting in general at birth when no one knows.
Our Rav allows preparations before birth if there is a reason to (stroller on sale, make life easier etc), so planning wasn’t an issue.
With our first, I gave birth ten minutes before Shabbos. We were on the phone with our Rav about an hour before Shabbos talking about if its a boy, when would the bris be? If I had given birth 19 minutes after candle lighting, the Bris would have been on sunday. If it were 42.5 minutes after shkiah, it would have been on Shabbos. I thought it was kind of interesting.
We had our shalom zachor in the hospital. According to my Rav, the SZ is where the baby is. So the attendants of the SZ were my husband, my mother, my sister and my frum roomate. Nice and simple with food from Satmar Bikur Cholim.
Isn’t there an ayin hora to prepare the child’s needs in advance?
The reason to “not know” is that you might start preparing for the baby before it is born. This is frowned upon because of “ayin Harah”. We wait until the baby is born healthy before we prepare for it, because we don’t want to give the baby an ayin harah. If you know you are having a boy, you might start painting the room blue, by the crib accessories, by the baby clothes, etc.
Do you think that the same people who can be trusted not to buy a crib and other baby furniture before birth can be trusted not to paint a room blue or buy crib accessories?
I think that if we can trust people not to buy major items before birth (which they’ll need regardless of the gender), then they can likely be trusted not to buy gender-specific stuff.
The Wolf
Completely? There are only 2 choices. You were just wrong.
Okay, okay. Poor choice of words. I said “completely wrong” because I was *convinced* (don’t ask me why, I have no idea) that that child was going to be the other gender.
The Wolf
My kids gave birth to a son on Thursday. B”H we knew it was going to be a boy, and had certain things bought (paper goods, decorations, etc.) or baked and frozen. It was VERY hectic erev Shabbos, and would have been a madhouse if we were not prepared in advance. we left SOME things undone, because until a baby is born, we don’t believe in being completely prepared, but it was much easier this time, knowing we had most things in place.
As a parent, had I been able to find out each time, I would have not wasted a second in finding out! In the olden days, our ancestors did not have the ability to find out as we do now. That does not mean it’s wrong to find out when we clearly can.
Canine, according to my Rav, its not a problem.
Many people are superstitious though.
Incidentally, my oldest was born on the second day of Succos, which, that year, turned out to be a Friday. Being the young, naive, unprepared wolf cub I was at the time, I had *nothing* for a Shalom Zachor that I needed to have *that night* in a succah (and I couldn’t buy anything because it was Yom Tov). On top of that, I had to spend most of the day walking around Brooklyn to tell people about the baby being born.
Fortunately, with the help of very kind friends, neighbors and families, a nice Shalom Zachor was managed.
The Wolf
Sjs: ayin hora is not a “superstition”.
I never asked what gender, I preferred the surprise! My children do ask, and I wait to find out after the baby’s born. May we hear many simchas in Klal Yisroel!
We were told to not do any ultrasounds unless absolutely necessary because bracha only rests on something hidden from the eye.
r boy and girl the only options?
i never wanted to find out, just for the fun of it, i think it’s more fun when it’s actually in your hands, then you see what gender your holding. it makes it so much more excited. not just for you but for everyone.
You can hear the answer by listening to a shiur Rabbi Frand gave on Parshas Shoftim 7/7/10, available on yadyechiel.org. Spoiler alert: it comes out less ‘meikal’ than you might think.
I can tell you right now: It will be a boy or girl.
I opened up this thread to say something, but I see Sacrilege has already said it. 😛
The technology that enables us to know what the gender of the unborn baby is, did not exist when our mothers (and even some of us) were pregnant. So we all HAD to be surprised. Things are different today and our married children do not have to be surprised UNLESS they want to be. Personally, I would want to know in advance. Some people prefer not to know. Okay, either way.
guy-ocho: “r boy and girl the only options?”
Torah613Torah: “I can tell you right now: It will be a boy or girl.”
Actually, no. Issues there do occur – whether physical or other, and sometimes even much more complicated than that.
Considering the Kli Yakar in Vayikra 12:2 tells a calculation that one could use to determine the gender (and has since been proven by modern science), as long as the doctor doesn’t do anything dangerous internally, I find it hard to believe that it is anything other than fully acceptable to find out the gender.
Of course there is another possibility!!! Multiple boys or girls, a double or triple simcha.
Derech HaMelech, we were told the same thing. It’s def not wrong halachically, so our Rav wasn’t stopping us, but he did quote a passuk how there’s more bracha in things that are hidden.
I read the Kli Yakar in Vayikrah. There is nothing remotely connected to modern science in it. It’s always better to speak to an ob/gyn or other knowledgable scientist before making claims based on wishful thinking.
I don’t know… something seems wrong about painting bedrooms and buying clothing in advance. It takes away from the excitement when the baby is actually born. It also causes more pain if for some reason or another the baby isn’t healthy. My brother was born on a Thursday night. We got a beautiful shalom zachor together on Friday morning. We bought him nice outfits too, as he was the first boy so there were no hand me downs. If anything, running to buy clothes right after he was born made us even more excited than buying them before the baby could wear it. If we would have bought them before he was born, they wouldn’t have fit him because he was way larger than the doctors expected.
My quetion is whether you can tell other people the gender such as the grandfather who would need to make travel arrangements to be sandek at the bris
You have no way of knowing if the bris will be on time, though. And once a boy is born, you do have a week to make travel arrangments.
I personally don’t find out. I enjoy the surprise, it makes having gone through the birth much more worthwhile when I look down and find out – I have two girls by the way, and for my third (BEZ”H) I still haven’t found out! If it’s another girl, I will be excited, and if it’s a boy, I will be excited.
Some people like chocolate and some vanilla, and that’s why one MAY find out the gender if one so chooses, or may elect NOT to. I only wish I had the technology perfected when I was expectating babies. I would absolutely have wanted to know. And no, it never made a difference to us, boy or girl.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.