- This topic has 66 replies, 28 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 11 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
CTRL-ALT-DEL: Please answer the question, what is your source for the strong statement that a man is not obligated to have children? Mankind is commanded to be fruitful and multiply. The gemara discusses whether learning is a heter for not getting married (seemingly because it is self-understood that having a family involves working to support it), and there is a shita that says that in limited situations it is, but there is no shita that one is not commanded to marry and have children (to my knowledge)…
Artiste -“All I’m trying to find out is if this issue is likely to be hereditary. Obviously I can ask the shadchan to find this out but I don’t think that that would be a decent thing to do.”
So what is the decent thing to do? Make up scenarios in your mind? If this bothers you, which obviously it does, you have to find out what issues did these woman have. The Shadchan is probably the only one who can find out. If you find out that it’s something genetic that affects fertility, you can research whether the disorder is one dominate gene and one recessive or two recessives causing the disorder. Once you have this info, you’d have to test the father if he is a carrier of this gene that causes this problem. Once you have all of this, then you can plug in all this info into the Mendelian genetics theory.
But since this requires testing on their part – guess what? they will balk. So basically it comes down to either accepting that there might be a higher percentage that this girl is infertile, more than others, or not. In my belief they won’t go through all this just for you to have a definitive answer of what the percentage is. But tell them I’m available, so your son is No great loss.
It’s funny how frum people talk the talk, but don’t walk the walk. We all say bitachon, and Emunaha which seems to apply to every situation besides oneself. All I can say is B’H the avos were not born in our generation since Sarah, Rivka and Rochel all had fertility issues. I wonder who would marry them all their children.
Sarah, Rivka and Rochel all had fertility issues.
I don’t remember any Midrashim that their mothers required advanced medical intervention.
anon1m0us -“It’s funny how frum people talk the talk, but don’t walk the walk. We all say bitachon, and Emunaha which seems to apply to every situation besides oneself.”
Actually it’s Not a Chesoron of Emunah and Bitachon exactly, because one is required to do Histadlus. But I agree with your gist. This is a problem of Tomim Teyeh because as it is the world doesn’t investigate e/o before marriage to see if they are fertile – so why is this girl different?
CAD- the typical mother that recieves a shidduch w/ fertility concerns gives a flat out no. and when that mother posts on the CR wanting to know if it was the right thing to do, everyone starts sayin toirah. the next day they get a shidduch redd to their son and, upon hearing of fertility concerns, give a flat out no. thats what bugs me. people love to dish out how theyd like to be percieved, and then, in general, dont follow through.
But DY, Avrohom and Sora were 90-100 when they finally had Yitzchok. Rivka and Yitzchok are told to be daavening in the corners of their home after 20 years of marriage and there was a possibility of divorce because she had not had children after 10 years of marriage (they waited 10 years for her to be ready to have children and then another 10). Leah daavened that Dina be a girl rather than the boy she was supposed to be because she knew that if she had 7 boys then Rochel would not even have had as many sons as the shifchos.
So although they did not have medical intervention, they merited to have clear nissim (especially since Sora did not even have a rechem, so how could she get pregnant).
Although I would hate to say no to an otherwise great shidduch, I can surely understand why OP would want her son to avoid a situation where the chances of not having children or needing large amounts of money to pay for treatments in order to conceive, etc. We all have nisyonos, but you don’t ask to have them given to you.
Nechomah,
My point was that their infertility wasn’t a known issue at the time the shidduchim were considered, so it has no bearing on our discussion.
And I agree that the OP has a legitimate concern, although I don’t know if the particulars of this case indicate that there’s a significantly higher chance of infertility issues than in the general population.
Toi, there are no guarantees in life, but I would like to think that I lead my life based on principle and that what I would suggest to others I would do myself.
CTRL-ALT-DEL: Please answer the question, what is your source for the strong statement that a man is not obligated to have children?
No such strong statement was made. I said that non-commission of this mitzvah does not rise to the level of commission of an aveirah. A man is obligated to have children but if he doesnt, then what? And your supposed to have at least one boy and girl right? Rashi didn’t. Was he oiver on this mitzvah?
Ctrl Alt Del: there’s non-commission of a mitzva chiyuvis due to oneis [“act-of-god” like situation], which is unfortunate, but not an “aveira”. There is also non-commission of a mitzva chiyuvis due to not caring enough to really try. This is incorrect. Even worse than that, would be to try to disguise not caring about a mitzva as caring about the fact that wives are much more than their reproductive organs. While this is an undeniable truth, as religous jews, the first and primary reason why we marry is to fulfill the first and primary mitzva in the torah.
Obviously, there is an entirely different discussion to be had about whether this individual girl has significant fertility issues. I have no clue. But to say that such concerns are somehow reducing a woman to her reproductive organs, seems directly, repeat, directly, opposite to what God wrote in our holy infallible Torah.
well, youre one in a million.
Nah, a lot of people would like to think that way about themselves. 😉
To date, I have a pretty good track record.
Dos Yaochid: Yes, but you should remember the medroashim that all the Avos had to davven for kids. The chumish clearly states that they were an “Akarah” (barren without children). Sarah gave Hager to Avroham as a wife. Yitzchok & Rivka davvened in seperate corners. Rochel tells Yaakov that she like a dead person if he does not give her kids.
Hmm, I just wonder if these emaous were around today will this potential mother in law reject them?
This girl is only a safek, and not even that! The fact that she was born with assistance shows her mother did have children. Don’t forget, males also contribute to this issue. I would suggest thatthe girl request that this boy undergo testing to show he can provide children. Just to be sure.
anon1m0us- I think Artiste was asking whether it’s more likely that this girl will have issues than an average girl. I don’t know the answer, as this level of intervention isn’t around long enough to know whether the problems can pass down. I do know a woman that had issues and some of her daughters have had issues as well, which does seem to show a genetic factor. This issue was known when they were teenagers. It might be possible to find out if there are known issues now. They might not reveal this information if they’re not asked. This is purely anecdotal though.
dy- exactly. and about 4 of them actually would.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.