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“Just-a-guy: Their father or husband should be making the decision.”
No the gedolim should be making the desicion. The gedolim shoudl be telling the fathers and husbands what daas torah is and how to vote.
squeak,
While at one time we married off women as young as three years old, today we require couples to be at least bar and bat mitzvah age, and also old enough to marry under secular law. And in most of the US that means at least age 16 even with parental consent, 18 without. (That hasn’t always been the law; my father’s first cousin got married without her parents knowledge at age 17. The marriage lasted over 67 years until her husband died.)
Mosherose, why was Devorah allowed to lead? Was she intellectually inferior to the men she was leading?
There are many stupid, bad, harmful leaders in this world who were men.
Anyone else find this post so sad that it turned funny?
“women don’t share men’s intellectual acumen.”
Apparently not. From some of the statements I have read here recently,it is clear that some if not most of the women surpass the intellectual acumen of some men. And btw, women have bina yesairah, which makes us uniquely more than qualified to be better decision-makers than many of our male counterparts.
anon for this, Actually the Egyptians when enslaving us, when they forced Jewish men to do women’s jobs and Jewish women to do men’s jobs, did not give work that the men and women were incompetent for. The men forced to do (women’s) kitchen work and the women forced to do (men’s) work, were given tasks they could complete. Nevertheless it was humiliating that men were doing women’s work and women men’s work.
oomis, I looked up the Torah Temimah that mosherose referred to, and this is what the Torah Temimah (R. Boruch Epstein) wrote: Girls do not have the intellectual stability and are, therefore, unable to make profound inquries with a sharp mind and appreciate the depth of the Torah. It is possible thay by using their own minds, they will transgress the Torah. Also in the Tur (Yoreh Deah 246, 15) he wrote: Most women’s minds are not geared toward being taught… (Then he describes the minority who are.) The Gemara (in Kidushin 80b) states that that women are lightheaded. And Rashi (Mishna Sotah 20a) says that women’s minds are not meant for serious Torah learning. (Rashi says if they do learn, it will lead to immorality.) The Rambam agrees with Rashi’s take. And the Shulchan Aruch follows this approach of Rambam. So I’m afraid your disagreement is with Chazal (the Gemorah) and the meforshim (Rashi, Torah Temimah) and poskim including SA and Tur. (But hey, let me guess the comeback… the Gemorah/Rashi/Shulchan Aruch/etc. no longer apply since time changes? [Maybe the women of 100 years ago were different.] Where have we heard that before…)
When literacy rates were extremely low, and women were even less educated than men, yes they couldn’t learn. I can’t imagine anyone would call Nechama Leibowitz immoral.
Kasha, you still haven’t answered my union question – do you think that women should automatically be given a lower wage for the same job (including same tasks, qualifications etc) JUST because she is a woman and not a man?
Also, why was Devorah allowed to lead the nation if women are stupid?
Oomis – 🙂
No the gedolim should be making the desicion. The gedolim shoudl be telling the fathers and husbands what daas torah is and how to vote.
Yeesh. Why even bother having an election then?
The Wolf
Anyone who thinks that women are incapable of learning or don’t have intellectual capabilities have only to open their eyes and look around.
Those that refuse to do so and think women are intellectually inferior are only doing the equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears, closing their eyes tightly and loudly saying “LA-LA-LA-LA-LA I CAN’T HEAR YOU!!”
The Wolf
How smart should a man have to be to be able to vote?
I suppose it doesn’t matter since he’s just vting for whoever the gedolim tell him to. In that case, why can’t women just vote for whoever the gedolim say to vote for?
“Yeesh. Why even bother having an election then?”
Yeesh. Why even bother having Gedolei Yisroel then? (They oughtta strictly stick to halachic issues, eh? We gotta put ’em in their place when they doggone step outta it.)
Kasha, you still aren’t answering my questions. If you don’t want to answer, please just say so.
Kasha- you refuse to address the serious question there which is to reconcile Hashem’s control of the universe with our free will.
Free will does NOT mean you are supposed to do whatever you wish. It means you CAN do it… and then face the music after 120.
SJS – Look back on the thread. I’ve answered it more than once. I haven’t implied the basis of your question.
Kasha- my point is not that we can do whatever we want. My point is that you make light of a serious point made by wolf.
SJS- I believe Kasha has answered it with his “negotiation factor” answer, which to me shows that he is quite detached from the working world. Kasha, if that’s not how you’ve answered SJS’ question, feel free to answer, as she has politely asked.
J-a-g: If Gedolei Yisroel issue an edict, whether its regarding an election or anything else, follow it. That’s my point.
Kasha, you didn’t answer. You skirted the issue by saying “no two people and no two jobs are the same.” I pointed to union work where the jobs are the same and each person is expected to perform the same amount of work. Should a woman and man in the same function and performing the same amount of work be given the same salary or should the woman automatically get less because of her gender?
You also didn’t answer the question about Devorah leading the Jews if she was inferior.
J-a-g: Actually I’ve worked in the secular business world ever since graduating. I’m probably more “attached” to the working world than anyone here.
Kasha- so why can’t women follow it at the voting booth? Others here have written about women not having the intellectual acumen to vote? What acumen is involved in pulling the lever for whoever the Gedolim say to vote for?
Ok Kasha, you’re very attached (though I doubt more than anyone here). Why don’t you answer SJS’ question then?
Hereorthere, there are plenty of stupid people out there and many of them are uninformed voters. They vote for race, religion, gender, quality of looks…I bet you can find a lot of black males who voted for Obama because he is black. That doesn’t mean all black men who voted for Obama were uninformed in their choice. It just means SOME are.
I personally don’t know any woman who voted for Clinton because he was good looking.
What if someone goes on an internet website and displays a third grade grasp of written english? Should they be able to vote?
j-a-g: The Gedolim usually don’t advise who to vote for specifically. (There are some exceptions.) Nevertheless, the man of the house can and should make the decisions for the house – including for elections. I know this concept although steeped in Torah (as previously iterated on this thread) sounds very foreign to someone steeped in the American golus mentality of egalitarianism.
SJS: What percent of the American voting women are you familiar with the reasoning of the their preferences?
Kasha, you still didn’t answer my Union question or my Devorah question.
I am probably more familiar with women’s voting choices then you are. I am part of plenty of Jewish and non Jewish womens only boards where politics come up frequently.
I’ve answered it. You simply didn’t like the answer. I’m not going to be any more repetitive.
So what is the percent? 0.00000001??
Kasha- what if the man of the house is stupid?
No you didn’t. Union salaries are non-negotiable. What I want to know is if you think the paygrade for a specific union job should be different based on gender.
You also didn’t answer my question about Devorah.
I would say my sample size is at least across a broad range of spectrum from women all across America. I don’t claim to be statistically accurate, but I know more than “I was shocked to hear and see one woman after another interviewed or speaking as a ‘news reporter” taking about how they all seemed to go for Clinton and just about all of them gaves as the reason that “oh he is so good looking, I just HAD to vote for him”. Especially since you don’t specify a quantity, I’ll assume less than ten. I know more than ten women.
J-a-g: Perhaps they should institute literacy tests. (Let me get the popcorn while the Jim Crow fireworks go off. I know some are going to take it literally. BRB.)
If there’s a literacy test, and a woman passes, should she be able to vote?
I knew you would take it literally! (Bob, pass the beer.)
Sorry Kasha, your humor is just too sophisticated for me. Either that or I’m not sure you know what “literally” means.
Since women can vote, we might end up with a Hillary for president. Feh.
Kasha, can you answer my question about Devorah?
Re: Devorah, the Gemarah does say a women cannot be a judge, and Tosfos asks your question. I would need to look up the grounds the Gemarah/Tosfos gives ruling against it.
BTW, I didn’t read any comment from any poster on this thread saying women are “stupid” (as you put it in your question.)
Saying they don’t have the intellectual acumen men do is a way of saying stupid.
No it isn’t.
SJS-
I don’t agree with what Kasha is saying, but I will explain what he meant (I think I can safely assume Kasha is not a “she”). We acknowledge that some people are “left brain” and others are “right brain” people without saying that one group is stupid relative to the other group. It is merely that one group’s intellect is geared towards a particular subject or discipline, and that those areas are the person’s intellectual strengths.
One could make a similar argument that men and women have different, gender-based intellectual strengths without calling either gender “stupid”.
Personally I am neither right nor left, but hare-brained.
Squeak, while I agree with that, these statements were also mentioned:
Girls do not have the intellectual stability and are, therefore, unable to make profound inquries with a sharp mind…
Most women’s minds are not geared toward being taught…
Women are lightheaded.
Most women I know do not fall into any of these categories. Most women I know are bright, intelligent, deep thinkers who learn very well and have a serious approach to learning.
No it isn’t.
So then, in practical terms, what does it mean?
The Wolf
There are certainly physical differences.
There are certainly emotional differences,
IN GENERAL.
Not every woman is muscularly weaker than every man, etc.
Would it not be surprising if there were not intellectual and cognitive differences as well?
The question is, what are the general differences in intellect, emotional tendencies, intuitiveness, etc. Pretty hard to define, pretty open to differences of opinion.
What do Chazal say about this? That’s what matters to me, not what would make me happy, or what would conform to my little american mind, of which I am so proud.
SJS: Those statements you quoted were made by the Gemorah and meforshim.
“Nevertheless, the man of the house can and should make the decisions for the house – including for elections. I know this concept although steeped in Torah”
This concept is NOT steeped in Torah, as there were no elections in the Torah. People did not vote for their leaders, and please do not equate a secular concept (voting) in a secular country, with a religious mandate. This is getting silly.
As to the comment about women voting for Bill Clinton because he was so good looking (seriously???? – I never saw it)… well no one will argue that SOME women are very shallow and foolish. So are plenty of men who vote for a guy because he’s a “man’s man!”
I prefer to judge women and men on an individual basis, not on the basis of gender. Some women are less intellectual, some more.
Kasha, the point is still that Devorah was a leader. She had the mental capabilities to lead the Jewish nation. It would be nice if men who think women can’t lead would acknowledge that yes, there are women who can.
There are certainly physical differences.
There are certainly emotional differences,
IN GENERAL.
Not every woman is muscularly weaker than every man, etc.
Would it not be surprising if there were not intellectual and cognitive differences as well?
Granted. This is true.
The question is, what are the general differences in intellect, emotional tendencies, intuitiveness, etc. Pretty hard to define, pretty open to differences of opinion.
But if it’s so open to differences of opinion, does it really have any meaning at all? If we can’t even quantify how these traits are distributed among the genders, how can we make any statements about them one way or the other?
What do Chazal say about this? That’s what matters to me, not what would make me happy, or what would conform to my little american mind, of which I am so proud.
Fair enough… but what if (hypothetically) it could be shown that Chazal were wrong. What if it could be shown that, with regard to learning ability, women are just as capable as men?
The Wolf
oomis, I said the concept, not the specific example. You seem to feel anything out of conformance with liberal feminist ideology, you cannot fathom stems from Torah hashkofos.
SJS, And like the gemarah/meforshim mention, she was the exception. The conversation is focusing on the norm.
Wolf: Chazal are not wrong. End of discussion; period.
Wolf, I personally think that at the time Chazal said it, it was true. The general population was rather uneducated and illiterate, very few had decent educations. Women NEEDED to be with their children because there werent alternatives to nursing them. Women also married much younger and even during childhood had to work much harder. Sure, when a woman is only focused on birthing/raising/feeding her children with all the hardships that were around in those days, they didn’t have the time/energy/capacity to learn.
Nowadays, reality is different.
Wolf: Chazal are not wrong. End of discussion; period.
Yes. That’s why I said “hypothetically.”
The Wolf
Wolf, I personally think that at the time Chazal said it, it was true. The general population was rather uneducated and illiterate, very few had decent educations.
We had a discussion a while back (in fact, it was about this specific statement of the Torah Temimah) about whether statements by Chazal or latter rabannan could be influenced by the time/place/culture in which they lived or whether they were said in a vacuum (so to speak) and are eternally true regardless of any latter cultural/temporal/geographic changes.
My statement on the matter was that of course statements by Chazal (or anyone else) are influence by the times/place/culture in which they live. I don’t see how it could be possible to say otherwise. Everyone, Chazal and latter rabanan included, grew up in a place and time with a surrounding culture. All of them had experiences in their lives — good and bad — that shaped who they were. Everyone has personal feelings and opinions on matters. Everyone is affected by the surrounding culture and the events of the day — and that influence shapes what people say.
The Wolf
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