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WolfishMusings
“Let me get this straight. If you live in Brooklyn and you want to move to Eretz Yisroel (or Lakewood, or Seattle, or even Vanuatu) and your wife absolutely refuses, are you going to move without her?”
i couldn’t have asked a better question! this was a real question a few years back, someone lived in israel and wanted to move to lakewood, his wife said no way, i don’t want to leave eretz yisroel.
he went to a rav, they said divorce her, she said, i won’t accept it, they got 100 rabbanim to force it on her.
what do you think now? let me guess, this is a made up story….
actually the husband was one of the gedolim.
EDITED
Doesn’t the Gemorah say that a husband “acquires” a wife?
“No, it’s the Mishnah.
But even so, it’s not a true ownership… and you know that.”
What’s a “true ownership”? What kind of ownership do you believe the Mishna/Gemara is referring to?
TMB-
The halacha differentiates between ‘Kinyan Issur’ and ‘Kinyan haGuf’. Kinyan issur means that you go through a procedure in which you make an act of acquisition but you don’t actually acquire anything, you just have new rules that apply to you. Kinyan haguf is when you actually acquire the item. A slave is a kinyan haguf. A woman is only a kinyan issur; a man doesn’t own his wife. This is in the gemara. It’s probably what the Wolf was referring to.
A kinyan is synonymous with a change in status.
Ownership is synonymous with responsibility.
Even regarding slavery it is said “Mi shekana eved kana adon l’atzmo”.
If you want to own someone that will take orders from you, get a dog.
If you want to own someone that will take orders from you and cook your meals, tough luck.
chesedname-
They didn’t force it on her. They forced her to accept a divorce, and that’s a big difference.
squeak-
I’m not sure if you’re trying to argue with what I said, but for the record that gemara about a slave is only talking about an eved ivri and not an eved kena’ani, whereas I was referring to an eved kena’ani.
chesedname-
To rephrase: They didn’t force her to move, they forced her to accept a divorce, and that’s a big difference.
yitayningwut
that’s what i said they forced her to take the get
My point is there’s a big difference between that and forcing her to do something she doesn’t want to do. But besides, there’s a bigger reason why the case is not similar to Wolf’s point. Over there the reason they forced her was not because of her husband’s decision, rather they held that there was an obligation on the husband to move and she had no right to stop him. The same would be if the wife had a mitzvah to move somewhere, they would force the husband to give a get if he did not agree to move. That is a mishnah in K’subos. It has nothing to do with the husband’s right to have the final say.
“My point is there’s a big difference between that and forcing her to do something she doesn’t want to do.”
True, yet on the first page of this thread someone cited a S”A and Rambam specifying cases when a wife is forced to do something she doesn’t want to do. So the concept is in halacha.
Chesedname,
Your point aside, you didn’t actually answer my question. Would you assert your authority and “pull rank” and *force* your wife to move to EY, Lakewood, Seattle, Vanuatu (or anywhere else) if she absolutely refused?
The Wolf
Why his point aside? His story demonstrated a godol insisted on just that.
TMB-
That argument presented there is fallacious because the same way the gemara (and SA and Rambam) says there are things a woman is obligated to do for her husband, it also says a man has things he is obligated to do for his wife. Moreover, the obligations of a man to his wife are explicit in the Torah (???? ????? ?????? ?? ???? in mishpatim) while the obligations of a woman to her husband are not – other than the fact that she must be faithful to him. These halachos do not in any way imply that the wife is owned by her husband or has less of a say than he does.
Why his point aside? His story demonstrated a godol insisted on just that.
See yitayningwut’s comment above on why my question is not analogous to his case.
Besides, I wasn’t asking him whether it’s permitted. He said that in an impasse you have to eventually “pull rank.” I’m asking him if he would actually do so. I didn’t ask about someone else.
The Wolf
I’m scratching my head because I could have sworn in school I learnt that if one spouse wants to make aliyah the other is obligated. Otherwise, they couldn’t obligate their spouse to move.
And he didn’t obligate his wife. He forced her to take a get. That’s a huge difference.
yitayningwut, True, yet halacha is specific what obligations a wife has to her husband, and what obligations a husband to his wife. Each are enforceable. And they are different from each other.
“I’m asking him if he would actually do so. I didn’t ask about someone else.”
The actions of a godol are more informative than that of an anonymous poster.
SJS-
My point exactly. And that halacha is the mishnah in K’subos I referred to.
TMB-
I agree, but it does not say that beyond those specific obligations either spouse’s decision carries any more weight.
“True, but it does not say that beyond those specific obligations either spouse’s decision carries any more weight.”
yitayningwut, The obligations halacha specifies for each spouse are rather general and comprehensive. And in situations where halacha gives one spouse more authority, that spouse’s wishes carry more weight.
The actions of a godol are more informative than that of an anonymous poster.
Maybe. But nonetheless, I didn’t hear it from a gadol that one must eventually “pull rank.” I heard it from him. That being the case, I want to hear from him if he would actually do so.
It’s not a difficult question — and I’m even not asking him to actually do it. Just asking if he would actually force his wife to move to the ends of the earth against her will.
The Wolf
“The actions of a godol are more informative than that of an anonymous poster.”
Ok, but why are you ascribing the motives of the Godol in this case to “pulling rank,” as opposed to considering that perhaps, being that he is a godol, there were extenuating circumstances that simply do not apply to most marriages?
I’m sorry I don’t have the sources at my fingertips at the moment, but I do recall that halacha makes a general statement that a wife is obligated to obey her husband’s wishes. Again I don’t recall off-hand if the exact terms are obligated and obey (I believe that they are though), but that is the general gist in halacha.
Kasha,
You never answered my question from yesterday.
You brought the S”A & Rambam which lists tasks a wife does for her husband. You made the point that she *must* do these tasks. That being the case, please answer the questions I asked yesterday — specifically:
So, are you going to force your wife to wash your face, arms and legs even when she doesn’t want to?
Does your wife pour every cup you drink (when she’s present and not a nidda, of course)?
Does your wife stand around to wait on you?
The Wolf
but I do recall that halacha makes a general statement that a wife is obligated to obey her husband’s wishes
But that doesn’t preclude the possibility of the couple working out some other arrangement (i.e. where they both share equal power in the marriage).
The Wolf
TMB-
The halacha delegates each spouse specific obligations. The specific obligations I am talking about are the ones each spouse has the right to demand from the other in Beis Din, or force a get.
There is no specific halacha which states across the board that a wife is obligated to abide by the husband’s wishes. If what he wishes happens to be something in the ‘marriage contract’ so to speak, then she must abide by it, but not because his wishes carry weight per se, rather because this particular thing was agreed upon by them getting married. Therefore I don’t think the idea of one spouse having more authority in this area is accurate, because he/she never actually has authority, rather they are each bound by their own specific obligations to the marriage. I hope I am being clear.
My point is that you cannot show from the fact that a woman has many obligations in a certain area that this area is ‘the husbands domain’ or vice versa. Each spouse has requirements, and it ends at that. The rest should be decided through discussing and compromising.
Kasha-
It is said that a good woman does the will of her husband. It is not a halacha, but is considered proper. But I don’t think that is relevant, I think that refers to caring for him extra etc., not that she shouldn’t speak up if she disagrees with his mehalech, because she definitely has that right.
Kasha-
BTW the source is Nedarim 66b and it’s talking about a woman buying her husband things he likes.
The problem is so many of us have been brainwashed by American egalitarianism, that we view life through that false non-Jewish prism, that has no basis in Judaism. This causes to think that such-and-such halacha is “unfair” and we must rethink it in light of contemporary standards.
The problem is so many of us have been brainwashed by American egalitarianism, that we view life through that false non-Jewish prism, that has no basis in Judaism.
Please demonstrate how a husband and wife willingly working on matters through discussion and compromise and agreeing not to make major unilateral moves (rather than he “pulling rank”) in the marriage is “American egalitarianism” and “not Jewish.”
The Wolf
Wolf, please be honest and do not ascribe false imputations to my comments.
Wolf, please be honest and do not ascribe false imputations to my comments.
TMB,
Please don’t ascribe to malice what can be ascribed to ignorance.
If I misinterpreted your post, then please explain it and point out where my error is rather than accusing me of dishonesty.
The Wolf
It’s hair pulling to see someone seemingly try to dismiss a point by attribution things to it that were not implied.
A husband and wife willingly working on matters through discussion and compromise rather than pulling rank is highly praiseworthy, and nowhere have I said otherwise.
Actually, a lot of halacha is based on what is done with society. That is why I wonder if the concept of the Rambam applies but not the details. Is a woman really obligated to wash her husband’s feet nowadays when its not done? Perhaps not. Are there other obligations she has? Probably. I haven’t had time to ask my Rabbi this yet.
A husband and wife willingly working on matters through discussion and compromise rather than pulling rank is highly praiseworthy, and nowhere have I said otherwise.
Then in that case I clearly misinterpreted your statement and humbly apologize.
The Wolf
Is a woman really obligated to wash her husband’s feet nowadays when its not done? Perhaps not.
I have often maintained this stance. And yet, when I do (despite the obviousness of it — consider the Rambam’s halacha that women shouldn’t leave the house more than a few times a month) I get bashed for suggesting that halacha sometimes changes with the times.
The Wolf
WolfishMusings
first i agree with Trying my best and believe have stated before in different words, if they can discuss and come to an agreement, of course that’s the way to go, no one said a guy should tell his wife, tonight you’re making me a steak, end of story!!
my point as others have made if there is no agreement, or compromise possible, one has to be able to pull rank, this isn’t something anyone can argue with otherwise a lot of disagreements would never be finalized.
the only argument you can make is let the woman pull rank.
then we go to the holy sefarim and see if that’s the correct approach
as far as your other question if i would make my wife move?
i think the true story i mentioned, answers what halacha says is the right thing to do. who cares what i think? i like to stick with halacha.
as far as your other question if i would make my wife move?
i think the true story i mentioned, answers what halacha says is the right thing to do. who cares what i think? i like to stick with halacha.
So does that mean that you’d make your wife move against her will? It’s a simple yes/no answer.
The Wolf
my point as others have made if there is no agreement, or compromise possible, one has to be able to pull rank, this isn’t something anyone can argue with otherwise a lot of disagreements would never be finalized.
If a couple cannot come to some sort of compromise — even on a major issue — to the point where one has to “pull rank” and force the other to do something against their will, then that is a sign that there is something troubling in the marriage. And forcing the wife (or husband, for that matter) into a major decision against their will will only cause resentment and further deteriorate shalom bayis.
I highly doubt that that is what the Torah wants.
The Wolf
It’s not that halacha changes with the times, but rather our interpretation of what the halacha actually sigifies, and whether in fact it is halacha or custom of a particular time and place. I am reminded of the story of a Din Torah where a wagon owner was brought to the BD by a client who had hireed him to transport some merchandise for him. The roads were treacherous,the wagon turned over, and all the items were smashed beyond repair. The wagonmaster denied responsibility for what was an accident but the BD was ready to rule in favor of the merchant. The BD told the wagonmaster that the Torah states that when one is hired to do a job, he must be very careful not to damage the goods.
The wagonmaster was very upset because he stood to lose a great deal of money. when he suddenly thought to ask the dayanim, “When exactly was the Torah given?” To which they replied on Shavuos, of course. “Oh,” said he, “you mean it was given when the weather was sunny and dry in the summertime??? Had it been given during a nasty winter season when the roads are snowy and slippery, perhaps the halacha would have been different!”
The point I am making should be obvious (not that the wagonmaster was correct, of course), that many factors need to be taken into consideration, as to how an interpretation of halacha is or should be made in a specific time and place. What seems so obvious at one time in history (women washing their husband’s feet), clearly is not necessarily shayach today. Most women do not sit at the spindle or loom anymore, either.
And although it is true that sometimes a husband has to be the final arbiter and decision maker regarding a specific inyan, likewise there will be times when it is the wife and wife alone who should be making that decision for them. A secure man is not threatened or upset by that, btw. And is it not halacha that a man should be mechabeid his wife more than himself??????? Or did I misunderstand what I was taught in Yeshivah, and that idea is merely meaningless lip service? Someone who truly honors his wife would not bully her.
chesedname-
“My point as others have made if there is no agreement, or compromise possible, one has to be able to pull rank, this isn’t something anyone can argue with otherwise a lot of disagreements would never be finalized.”
I disagree. Neither has the right to ‘pull rank’. This is exactly the situation where one should consult their rav, and let him decide, because neither of them is competent enough to make the decision on their own, nor has the right to.
Chesed, that story says nothing. It says a husband and wife disagreed so they got divorced. Actually, I think it says that they clearly didn’t have a strong marriage to begin with.
And I can’t think of a certain item that my husband and I would disagree on so vehemently that we couldn’t agree or compromise on.
Wolf, well the Rambam says “These are the things women do for their husbands so all women have to do them.” That changes with time. I wouldn’t say so much that the halacha changes, but the details may.
A Woman can force her husband to move to E’Y.
Offen A Rashi Kesubos 110B, from the Mishna there.
Who is really the boss? Hashem and his Torah.
Thank you GAW, I knew I wasn’t crazy 🙂
Hereorthere, it would make sense that woman no longer has to wash her husbands feet as its not done today and the Ramabam quoted those things as “what women do” – it would make sense for the “what women do” list to be updated.
Now, I’m very machmir so I follow that list. I didn’t want to nurse my kids, but my husband asked me to and I did. I also knit – does that count as spinning?
A Woman can force her husband to move to E’Y.
But the point should be made that because someone “can” do something that doesn’t automatically mean that they “should” do it (or even that it’s a good idea).
The Wolf
“But the point should be made that because someone “can” do something that doesn’t automatically mean that they “should” do it (or even that it’s a good idea).”
I would have thought that was obvious. Look what happened in the case in question earlier (the person wanted to move to Chutz). He ended up divorcing his wife.
The right thing or not, no one wants it to happen to them.
SJS: You can (halachicly) pay for someone else to do almost all of these things. Bottle feeding would count as nursing in this day and age.
wolfishmusings
Force? G-d forbid! My wife does it WILLINGLY and HAPPILY. Just like I don’t have to “force” her to keep Shabbos, I don’t have to even ask her to do the things mentioned.
Yes, she does it on her own initiative. So the answers to your questions are yes, yes, and yes. (Without any compulsion.)
Yes, I know we’ve been in golus so long you and some others may find it astounding that *gasp* some people still keep our halachas as brought down in the meforshim. But believe you me, I am far from lonely here. Welcome to the Torah world!
Kasha,
Great. If that’s what works for your marriage, then all the more power to you. If your wife is willing to stand around and wait on you hand and foot all day, then fine — it’s her (and your) life (lives). If your wife is willing to lay down and let you “pull rank” on major decisions, then great — it works for you.
But just because it works for you doesn’t mean that it works for everyone. I’ve found that, in my household, working things out through discussion and compromise — and with no one “pulling rank” works for us.
Yes, I know that you believe that that’s not how the Torah wants families run. But I can’t believe that the Torah wants me to run roughshod over my wife’s wishes (against my will too) when making major life decisions. I don’t believe for a moment that that’s what the Torah wants and I will not do it.
The Wolf
Force? G-d forbid! My wife does it WILLINGLY and HAPPILY. Just like I don’t have to “force” her to keep Shabbos, I don’t have to even ask her to do the things mentioned.
Upon reflection, I realize that you didn’t really answer the question.
My wife does those things for me too. (And, I’ll point out, I do them for her as well.)
But you said that a wife *must* do those things. Therefore — IF YOUR WIFE DID NOT WANT TO DO THOSE THINGS would you force her to do so since, as per your bringing down the Rambam and S”A, she must?
The Wolf
Oh c’mon wolfishmusing, don’t use that fig leaf. Don’t put words in my mouth. We love following halacha, plain and simple. We’re not looking for “heterim” and cop-outs. And “working things out through discussion and compromise” IS EXACTLY what we do. Yet the questions you asked required no compromise or even discussion as we are on the exact same page. But when things come up, discussion and compromise are exactly how we work things out. There is no “pulling ranks”, so please don’t try to put down our Torah and halachic loving family with such put-downs.
Edit to answer your second post:
I don’t even understand the question. We both love doing what halacha wants. I can’t imagine either one of us “not wanting to do those things” or anythings halacha specifies.
And “working things out through discussion and compromise” IS EXACTLY what we do.
And yet when I said that my wife and I both have equal say in the household back on page 1, you said:
That’s at odds with the way the Torah dictates a marriage is to be run.
Which is it?
In my household we both have equal say because we work things out through discussion and compromise. We agree not to make pre-emptive moves against each other. We agree not to make major life decisions unilaterally. Neither of us would ever dream of “pulling rank” on the either. But you said that that’s counter to the way a marriage is to be run according to the Torah.
So, which is it? Is the way my household is run counter to the way the Torah dictates (in your opinion) or not?
Or am I totally misunderstanding your position — and if so, please explain how.
The Wolf
I don’t even understand the question. We both love doing what halacha wants. I can’t imagine either one of us “not wanting to do those things” or anythings halacha specifies.
Forget you and your wife. Imagine any other couple (real or fictional). If the wife (for whatever reason — fatigue, bad day, argument w/spouse, whatever.) doesn’t want to wash her husband’s hands and feet, or doesn’t want to wait on him hand and foot, should she be forced to (since, as you said, she must)?
The Wolf
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