- This topic has 737 replies, 58 voices, and was last updated 6 years, 11 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
The halacha is exactly as Kasha said. The man is in charge of the house and the wife is not allowed to say anything against him. She has to do the things the Rambam and the S”A say (washing him, serving him, ect). Besides this being halacha, it is pashut that it has to be this way.
Wolf if everyone is equal in a house then I think he needs to ask a shaila if he’s allowed to run the house that way. If not and a wife wont listen to a husband, he may be required to divorce her. She might be considered a moredes for not listening to him.
“The Wolf (who has changed many diapers and cooked many meals) “
You should ask about this too. A man who cooks meals for his family (I’m not talking about a professional chef) may be oiver the lav of lo yilbash, which includes things that women normally do (like dieing hair). Since normally the wife cooks, I think that it would be assur for a man to do constantly.
mosherose, the halacha of “lo yilbash” refers to dress/ accessories/ personal grooming habits. It does not refer to other actions. Do you have a source for your statement that cooking or changing diapers would be included, or is it just a guess on your part?
And I’m not The Wolf, but if he and his wife agree to share important decisions, then he obviously approves of this method of running their household. How, then, could his wife be considered a moredes?
“No one said that the greatness of women is at odds with the Torah “
Perhaps I misunderstood, but what I inferred (possibly incorrectly) was that the LEADERSHIP ability of a woman in her household is at odds with the Torayh. I was pointing out cases that the Torah specifies to teach us that sometimes the ezer must be k’negdo in order for the home (and marriage) to work properly. The Torah surely was not putting up these examples as “gnai” to the women mentioned.
Lots of things are lo yilbash. Dieing hair carrying a weapon and so on. Anything that a woman normally does is assur for a man and vice versa. Thats why women dont go to war.
And his wife is a moredes because we assume that both of them want to follow halacha even if they act differently – see the meforshim about beating a man to give his wife a get. If she doesnt want to follow halacha then shes a moredes no different as if she didnt cook kosher meals or go to the mikvah.
Mosherose I hope you’re kidding with that cooking part.
Absolutely not. Of course if his wife is sick he should be able to do something in an emergency. but he shouldnt do it bkveius: its just wrong.
Aha ok I hear you. I guess we’ll each deal with our marriage each to their own.
mosherose,
It is not halacha that the wife is not allowed to have her own opinions and the husband SHOULD listen to the wife if her opinion is correct, like Hashem commanded Avraham Avinu to listen to Sura Emienu.
There are a lot of couples who’s wife does not voice her opinion strongly and the husband does things that are not correct.
You are hiding under halacha when you say a man shouldn’t help his wife with womanly duties. In fact Rav Miller speaks very strongly against men who able yet don’t help out at home.
smartcookie, you are indeed a smart cookie.
I didnt say he shouldnt help in the house. I said he shouldnt do things on a regular basis that women normally do. Their are plenty of things for a man to do to help around the house. Their are mens jobs and womens jobs. Cooking is a womans job.
Avraham only listend to Sarah because Hashem told him to. Otherwise, he was the boss in the house.
“Aha ok I hear you. I guess we’ll each deal with our marriage each to their own. “
Not when its against the Torah. When its against the Torah its my (and your) job to set the marriage straight since kol yisrael areivim zeh lzeh.
mosherose, again, what’s your source for stating that it is an ossur of “lo silbash” for a man to cook, clean, or change diapers? Why, exactly, is it wrong for a man to do these tasks? Please cite a source for your claim.
I have to give you a source for a pasuk? It says lo yilbash. We know that it includes anything which is normally done by women. That includes dieing hair, carrying a weapon (for a woman) and so on.
Heres another example. Rav Eliyashiv holds that its assur for a woman to drive. Why? Lo Yilbash. The S”A says a man isnt allowed to look in a mirror. Why? Lo Yilbash. Anything that a woman does regular is part of Lo Yilbash. That includes cooking at home.
Hereorthere, I didn’t say all about me, I said MORE. And I put a smiley…I was joking.
The reason I mentioned boys is because I HAVE TWO SONS AND NO DAUGHTERS. It has nothing to do with feminism. You are reading into it. And no, I am not angry at being called a feminist. I think a lot of good has come out of the feminist movement.
Mosherose, if you are who I think you are, what happened to the sweet boy who would spend hours watching sportscenter? Your posts make me laugh!
Cooking is not a task only done by women. It is also done by men (especially bachelors). It is ASSUR for a man to dye his hair. I’ve never heard anyone say its assur for a man to cook.
I actually wonder how the Rambam and Rama manifest itself in today’s day and age. After all, those were tasks that women did in those days and NOT doing them was considered rebellion. But nowadays those are not the tasks everyone does. I mean, do you know anyone (barring a disabled spouse) who washes her husband’s feet? I’m going to ask my Rav about this.
Now there are halachic things that a woman cannot do – like never be part of a minyan. But other than that? The sky is the limit for her.
mosherose, thanks for your response. Obviously you don’t have to give a source for the pasuk. I was just asking if you had a halachic source for your statement that the ossur of lo silbash includes household tasks. Obviously you don’t have a source, and are just extrapolating on your own. That’s may be OK for steam table calculations, but not so much for halacha.
Anon I like the steam reference 🙂
I gave you a source. Rav Eliyashiv holds its assur for a women to drive because of lo yilbash, because men normally do that. driving is no differnt than cooking, ect
mosherose, what is your halachic source for stating that driving is no different than cooking? I know that I’m allowed to cook some items on Yom Tov, so does this mean I may also drive on Yom Tov, since the two are, as you say, “no different”?
SJS, I knew that if you were reading the thread, at least one person would know that I wasn’t talking about a cafeteria. And of course we know that extrapolation is generally riskier than interpolation, and is sometimes best left to the professionals. That’s true in engineering calculations and in halacha as well.
Mosherose, you’re reminding me of some CR old timers…
Morose- bubba meises. First off, rav Elyashiv didn’t say a word about cooking so you are extrapolating. Second, I know and you know that no Halacha requires an unmarried man to buy takeout every night or have someone elses wife serve him. Third, if you want to say he may cook for himslef but not a family, I know and you know that no Halacha requires a widower or a divorcee with children to buy takeout every night or to have someone elses wife serve them. Fourth, lo silbash only applies if it applies to all men, and clearly cooking doesn’t fit the bill.
Stick to just harrassung wolf, which is what you’re good at.
Hereorthere, I think girls should be trained to believe that men are people. They are not just there to earn money and father children. They are individuals with thoughts, feelings, want, needs etc. I believe its important to teach both boys AND girls that neither gender is greater than the other and that aside for a limited scope of halachic rulings, both women and men can accomplish whatever they want.
And actually, you did call me out based on what I wrote “in two threads.” Its ok to criticise me and call me out, but please at least own up to what you are doing. Even if this thread isn’t about me, when you comment about what I am saying, don’t backtrack and say “but the statement isn’t about you.” Yes it is. This is something you’ve done multiple times on the few threads I’ve been involved with you.
Actually, you called me a “they” in your first paragraph and then misquoted what I was saying.
And there is NOT a rampant and obvious imposition of anti male feminist agenda in public schools, unless you count the idea that girls can excel at math at science as well as boys can anti-male.
Yes, I do think secular society should be about men and women being equal. Women SHOULD (and thankfully are) allowed to vote, own property, have no men enforcing rules on them.
When it comes to halacha, that’s what we follow. If a woman wants some more responsibility within halacha (like davening 3 times a day), as long as its within the halachic framework, why not?
mosherose:
So are you saying that if a girl marries a learning boy and is out all day working so that she can support the family, the husband “cannot make supper on a regular basis” even if he’s home earlier and it works better for them? Rather, he should sit at home waiting until she comes home at whatever time it is, put his feet up, and let her start cooking supper?
I honestly don’t understand your posts at all. Marriage is a partnership, not a dictatorship. It’s about two people working together, trying to give to each other, to create a good, solid family.
Listen mosherose, does lo silbash refer to a woman working to support her kollel husband? Obviously this is a chesed that women take upon themselves to live a kollel lifestyle. Just as a husband should sometimes help out in the kitchen as a chesed to his wife and for sholom bayis. A wife should show her gratitude to her husband for this chesed. and a husband should show his gratitude to his wife for helping financially support the family. and if driving a car helps the wife in her tafkid, then kol hakavod.
yes wolf, go to court and you can see how they all turned out.
All? That’s pretty presumptuous of you.
Of course there are equal partnerships that end up in court. But to suggest that all (or even the majority do) is just wrong.
The Wolf
Another point, real Torahdik men honor their wives and don’t use some else’s opinion or interpretation of Halacha to justify bullying or not helping out with household tasks. I have never seen Shalom Bayis in a home where the husband is a bully. Mutual honor and respect bring Shalom Bayis (a state of being that we all wish to achieve), and that is worth cooking a few meals.
This isn’t lo yilbash. And though this should be obvious to those who learned the sugya I will cite a source for anyone else – see R’ Akiva Eger Y.D. 182 where he says lo yilbash is taluy in social norms.
Wolf if everyone is equal in a house then I think he needs to ask a shaila if he’s allowed to run the house that way. If not and a wife wont listen to a husband, he may be required to divorce her.
Yeah, whatever.
I’m not asking a shaila about divorcing my wife because we consider each other equal partners in the marriage.
The Wolf
WolfishMusings
you’re good at twisting words, why the need to always win?
i said in my post (which you didn’t copy) that you’ll find some that work, but their the exception to the rule.
every rav and business person i spoke to always said never do 50%-50% and yes most end up in court or fighting.
it’s not normal, or human nature to have 2 ppl agree all the time, or one always saying OK we’ll do it your way this time. there has to be one boss!
Chesedname, a marraige of 50%-50% doesn’t mean that literally. It means neither is the boss.
In my marriage, the person who is most passionate about the subject generally wins. We love in each other and want the best for our family, so we don’t overuse this.
For example, we are looking at schools. DH really wants a gender specific school for our children. The only school like that near us is a school I won’t send my kids to because IMHO the administration doesn’t care about the children from what I’ve seen. I am more passionate about that, so we are probably going with a coed school. My husband has no problem with this, even though his preference is to not send our kids to coed schools.
I agree with chesedname. There is good reason ownership splits will often be 51-49 (or even 50.1-49.9). So there is one final arbiter where disagreements arise, despite a near equal ownership stake. And I agree that 50-50 ownership stakes disproportionately result in disputes, whether they land up in court or not.
But all these explanations are really secondary. Like several other posters have pointed out (and quoted meforshim and gedolim) throughout this thread, it is the Torah that defines the roles in marriage. Halacha defines who is in charge. I won’t repeat what others have already pointed out earlier in this thread regarding specifics of who’s in charge.
SJS, are you trolling….?
it’s not normal, or human nature to have 2 ppl agree all the time, or one always saying OK we’ll do it your way this time. there has to be one boss!
Of course Eeees and I disagree on some issues. But when we do disagree we work it out — and no one makes a preemptive move to undermine the other until the matter is decided. We work things out with discussion and compromise. Neither my wife nor I will *ever* unilaterally overrule the other on any major decision.
If that’s not the Torah ideal, then I don’t know what is.
The Wolf
Trolling squeak? I was explaining a real life situation. Sure, most people here are probably outraged at the thought of a coed school (although boys do learn better in coed schools so this could be an anti feminist move on my part LOL), its a relevant example.
WolfishMusings
you’re watching too many movies, in real life there are times either side will stick to their opinion, if my wife and i disagree on which school to send to, and none of us move from our position, do you keep discussing it? at some point someone has to pull rank and make a call.
Trying my best
the rabbanim and seforim have a solution, all house decisions (what color the wall should be) is up to the wife.
all decisions outside the house (which car to get) and religious decisions, which school to send the kids too belongs to the husband.
Since my husband can’t veto it, I’m painting his man cave bright pink!
Chesed, I can’t imagine a situation where my husband and I are so at odds and neither is willing to compromise. Maybe we just have a really great marriage.
“it’s not normal, or human nature to have 2 ppl agree all the time, or one always saying OK we’ll do it your way this time. there has to be one boss”
I did not marry a boss. I married my husband to build a life with him and raise our five children together. Sometimes his opinion is more knowledgeable than mine, sometimes mine is more knowledgeable than his. We base our decisions through discussion together of the information we both have, both express our opinions, and make a joint decision. If one of us feels REALLY strongly about the outcome, then the other will probably defer. We both have deferred to each other, when we see the final decision matters very strongly to one of us (assuming there is not a compelling argument for the other decision).
The Torah calls a husband a “???” (ba’al). Anyone know the teitch/reason why?
you’re watching too many movies, in real life there are times either side will stick to their opinion, if my wife and i disagree on which school to send to, and none of us move from our position, do you keep discussing it? at some point someone has to pull rank and make a call.
If that’s the attitude towards a major decision, then there’s trouble in that marriage.
Let me get this straight. If you live in Brooklyn and you want to move to Eretz Yisroel (or Lakewood, or Seattle, or even Vanuatu) and your wife absolutely refuses, are you going to move without her?
Sorry. That’s not the way things happen in my household. After close to twenty years of marriage, Eeees and I have yet to find an issue where there is absolutely no possibility of compromise. And we both respect each other too much to make major life decisions without each other.
And that is real life (at least mine, anyway).
The Wolf
Trying my best- From Wiktionary:
Hebrew
Etymology
From Proto-Semitic *ba?l-
Noun
??? (ba`al) m (plural indefinite form ?????, singular construct form ???)
1. Husband.
2. Owner.
The Torah calls a husband a “???” (ba’al). Anyone know the teitch/reason why?
And guess what? The navi tells us that that’s not the ideal paradigm for a relationship. The ideal is ???????
?? ?????, ?????? ??????? ??????????, ??????????????, ???????????; ?????????????, ???-???????. ?? ?????????? ???? ???-?????????? ???????, ?????-????? ?????? ??????? ????????; ????????? ???????? ??????? ??????????, ???????? ????????? ???????-?????????. ?? ??????? ???????-?????? ?????-??????, ?????????? ???????; ?????-?????????-??? ????, ????????.
Hosea 2:16-18
Being a “Ba’al” is not the ideal. Being a husband is the ideal.
The Wolf
Doesn’t the Gemorah say that a husband “acquires” a wife?
Doesn’t the Gemorah say that a husband “acquires” a wife?>
No, it’s the Mishnah.
But even so, it’s not a true ownership… and you know that.
The Wolf
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.