Feminism

clearheaded-although i haven’t posted my opinions on this thread yet (because I disagree with too much said that I wouldn’t have time to do anything but post) I would definitely call that abusive 100%!!!!!

And I just wanted to mention that some of the arguments that people are bringing may sound so easy to keep to yet I wonder if the posters saying those things actually do them!

How would the posters here discribe the husband:

3. other

The choices are wrong. The Rambam didn’t say that women shouldn’t go out because it’s the husband’s perogative. He held that women shouldn’t go out for tznius reasons. I believe the Rambam’s halacha was meant for unmarried women as well.

The Wolf

Kasha,

Now look back at the answer I gave hereorthere on when I ask a shaaloh. I have never written that when posters decide I should ask a non-shaaloh, I will.

In addition I have clearly written that when missme will ask the shaaloh I asked her to, from her Rov, I will ask mine. After all, at the end of the day, were all halchic Jews. So first tell her to fulfill my precondition and then come back to me with your request.

Now maybe the Rov won’t laugh at me, but I will feel like a fool bothering the Rov for a non-shaaloh (read again how uncomfortable

I felt bothering the Rov just to clarify an issue I wasn’t sure about.) I will certainly not bother him to humor some anonymous posters out there.

Women have a binah yesierah, an intuition that can sometimes contradict with the logic of a man. It is sometimes vital, whether it’s dealing with a child’s issues or other situations that come up to follow the wife’s opinion. Therefore, in a marriage where there’s respect for each other and the wife’s opinion carries some weight, compromises can be reached. I cannot call that ruling over or following the husband’s wishes all the time. Now this is not a shaaloh for me, just as it’s not a shaaloh for me that I can’t go to the mall to air out. I think you should ask your Rov what exactly means ruling over one’s wife.

Btw, if you’re wondering what my husband thinks of my stance, he agrees with me completely. In fact, he thinks it’s quite humerous that some feel that husband’s rule their wives in all aspects. And you can hardly call a farbrente Chossid, a yiras shmayim who is respected by Rabbonim and works for the klal, a feminist. He’s a realist.

Where did I write that women shouldn’t limit there time outside? I have written that I air out by going to the mall. Airing out gives the ability for a person to revitalize and recharge oneself and in my case gives me the ability to be a better mother. I feel that going to the mall, going to a resturaunt with my husband or freinds means airing out which is vital for my mental health, so it’s not called spending unnesasary time outside. Feel free to disagree with me on what is vitaly important for me or any woman for that matter.

As for a 3-4 minute phone call your wrong about that too. My Rov is a very big posek and is every hard to reach (hence my uncomfortably at bothering him for shtissem). The phone line is constantly busy, I have to keep on trying repeatedly and even when I do reach him he can tell me he’s on the other line, I should call back in an x amount of minutes. I certainly will not go through the hastle of doing that for someone who has not been able to bring one solid argument that I can say, hey he has a point there, let me check it out with my Rov.

Don’t worry, I won’t bite off your head if you let me know whether you choose a, b, or c in my little questionnair. If you choose c kindly explain why you chose that option.

clearheaded

Your repetitive response indicates you are still writing from an emotional cocoon. There is nothing more to add to it.

About battered women:

From Domestic Violence Resource Center: Studies show that access to shelter services leads to a 60-70% reduction in incidence

From Commision on Domestic Violence: More than half of female victims of intimate violence live in households with children under age 12.

From ABA on why women stay:

If the batterer holds a prominent position in the community, the victim may doubt her ability to make herself heard or believed.

If the batterer is the primary wage earner,the victim may question her ability to provide for herself and her children.

The victim may still love the batterer; if she has children, she may have concerns about separating them from their father and raising them alone.

The batterer may blame the abuse on substance abuse issues or job stress, leading the victim to believe that if these problems can be solved, the domestic violence will end.

father requested some form of custody, he was successful.

The victim may be without financial resources if she leaves, and may not have marketable job skills.

charm or charisma.

Religious beliefs may lead victims to think they must tolerate the abuse to adhere to their faith.

Cultural defenses may be cited by batterers,victims, or other community members; similarly, the victim may feel torn

between reporting the abuse and participating in a justice system she feels is biased against her ethnic or racial group.

Giving women access to shelters and resources resulted in a 60-70% reduction. So sure, loving a spouse even when they beat you is illogical (never mind the logic that goes into beating your spouse), but there are many more reasons why women stay. Given teh 60-70% reduction, if you teach a woman that she is a human being and give her the resources to stand on her own two feet (which is what feminism does with regards to giving women access to jobs that can support families), she will leave the horrific situation. Feminism helps solve that problem.

Never mind that before feminism (at least in secular society), women were the possesion of men. Abuse? You must have deserved it. Spousal rape? No such thing.

I wouldn’t say men and women are equally illogical, just differently illogical. Men are more likely to destroy their marriages by seeking happiness outside the home. Women are more likely to stay in a bad marriage longer. Both are destructive in different ways.

(I’ll continue in another post)

BTW Hereorthere, I don’t generally assume hostility/anger, so I’m not 100% sure why I read it that way. Thank you for accepting my apology. Good luck learning to italicize, bold etc.

As to the eruv: my husband’s family doesn’t hold that the eruv is treif, but they don’t use it. I’m not the only person I know to get this psak.

But here is another (less objectionable LOL) example.

Growing up my school and shul davened nusach ashkenaz. My father’s family davened nusach sephard. I never felt quite comfortable because everyone I was davening (school and shul) was ashkenaz. I spoke with my Rabbi who told me I was allowed to daven in Ashkenaz.

Fast forward: I got engaged to a guy who davens sephard. I never felt comfortable davening sephard. So I asked the Rabbi and was told I could continue davening ashkenaz.

Wolf, I was talking to clearheaded. She is making points no one is arguing with, i.e.:

a marriage should have mutual respect for each other

the wife’s opinion carries some weight

a husband cannot force a wife to do something against halacha

etc.

BTW clearheaded, the answer to your questionnaire is technically 2, but the way you presented it is absurd. A husband should not make it as a fiat (even if he is entitled to.) He must speak to his wife with love and compassion, even if he is setting rules. You stressed the word must in your quote, and that is not the correct approach to it. Additionally, you made an issue of mental health. If there is a question about that (as your example says), a mental health professional should be consulted for her, if the husband isn’t one, to make that determination.

In any event, I’ve repeatedly responded to your same repetitive points sufficient times. Consider this response conclusive.

If my husband came home and said he wants me to not leave the house (I assume the backyard is ok), I would ask him:

How does he plan to pay our living expenses without going into debt?

How fast can I start?

Can we get a swing set for the kids so they won’t miss the park?

I would LOVE to stay at home with my children. I don’t enjoy errands. I don’t mind when my husband grocery shopes.

Look at how many people smoke, they almost never start smoking as adults.

They do it as children or teenagers because of peer pressure.

Peer pressure occurs with kids whether the mother works or not.

There are many more indications that kids are not being raised properly, which are not as visible.

I’m not even sure what you mean by this. Please explain.

Actually there is a VERY strong and clear relation between vegetarianism and hatred of Jews.

All the animal rights wackos, hate Israel and can’t wait to see it destroyed.

In the end, she did both. When the kids were younger, she was a SAHM. Now that my kids are all teens and don’t need the full-time attention as much, she’s pursuing a career.

You missed the point. The point is that you can’t take trait A about a person who did evil and say that that was the cause of his/her evil. What if I showed you that the Columnbine shooters liked peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for lunch? Would you then ban PB&J?

I am not G-d, HE is the one you will obne day have to defend yourself and the ideas YOU suoported and advocated, as will I, as will your wife.

I’m fairly certain that HE will not mind the fact that my wife did not just sit around the house while the kids were at school.

If you are the exception where you have found a way to do it without missing on second of being with the kids so that when they make a decision later in life as a CEO to fire someone when they should have had compassion and not fired them, but did not know that because there would have been on day that G-d (not me)

Then this is not about “you”.?

I have no idea what the heck you’re talking about here. Can you please explain more clearly?

I responded to your GENERAL statement, and too bad if you do not like THAT.

Actually, you did not respond to a GENERAL statement. You responded to a VERY SPECIFIC statement that I made about MY family. In fact, I made no general statement at all.

To refresh your memory, the statement of mine that you responded to was:

In the end, she did both. When the kids were younger, she was a SAHM. Now that my kids are all teens and don’t need the full-time attention as much, she’s pursuing a career.

I did not say IN GENERAL that teens don’t need their mothers. I was talking about MY wife, MY kids and MY family, whom, frankly, you have never met and (aside from what I’ve said here) you know not one thing about. That being said, I DO take exception to your criticism of ME and MY family when there are others in the frum community who commit far more lax in the parenting of their kids.

The Wolf

Kasha, I just digested what you wrote. In other words, the husband shouldn’t have said what he said in such a flat way, but he was halachicaly correct with what he wanted his wife to comply with.

Aha, I see. My thick head finally chapped what you’re trying repeatedly to say.

But that will not happen if they are not there in the first place.

Hello… I’m talking about a case where the parents abandon the kids to their own devices. I’m talking about a case where the parent goes to school or a job while the kids are at school.

What lessons are you expecting my wife to teach the kids while she is sitting at home and the kids are in school.

So you are playing G-d and deciding you have G-d like powers to know that all through their future they will NEVER make a wrong decision that they would have made the right choice about if your wife had been there to teach them a certain lesson (perhaps that they would just observed, rather then actually being lectured to)

that will not change the course of their lives for the worse.

Oy… where to begin with this illogic?

First of all, let’s repeat — when the kids are at school, then my wife is not actively parenting. As such, there is no reason for her to hang around the house to worry about “wrong decisions” they will make at home — because they aren’t at home.

Secondly, do you and your wife EVER go anywhere without your kids? Maybe you’re going miss an opportunity that will have important ramifications in their future?

Thirdly, you seem to be under the assumption that parents are responsible for every decision their children make when they get older. That’s not true. My job is to give my kids the tools to make decisions on their own as they get older. If they’re a CEO in the future and fire someone, then it’s because they made the call based on their judgment. It is unfair and wrong to hold parents eternally responsible for everything their kids do in life.

When YOU bring them up, and use them as examples with the OBVIOUS implication that others should take some lesson from it regarding the topic being discussed.

No, it’s not OBVIOUS. Because something works for me, that doesn’t mean it works for everyone. Every parent needs to know their own situation. I know mine — and you don’t.

See, a fair criticism would have been something like “I’m glad that works for you, Wolf, but I feel that in general…”

An unfair response is “God will judge you for that…”

The former is a proper response, the latter is a direct criticism of a personal situation. I would not have taken the former personally. The latter I have no choice BUT to take personally.

That being said, let me repeat to you my main question:

Since the kids are in school all day, why do you think it’s so bad that my wife out learning/working while they aren’t home?

The Wolf

Hereorthere, if you have 8 kids living in Lakewood (8 is average no?), and school costs $5,000 a child, that’s $40,000 in AFTER TAX money. You still have to house and feed your kids. Its really hard to do without tzedaka.

BTW Teaneck is a very Jewish area. But nice try.

clearheaded: There is a common expressive question of “who wears the pants in the house?” (The question is figurative, not literal.) From your descriptions here thus far, it seems the answer in your case is that you share it with your husband. (i.e. your talk of “equality.”) Is this a correct reading of your comments, or do you perhaps wish to clarify this perception?

should ask a shalah if they are acting within the parameters of halacha because at the end of the day we are halachic Jews.

That’s exactly what I’ve been saying! (First comment on this page: “ask the 2 shaalos that were suggested to you? I know you said you don’t think their necessary, but at the end of the day were all halachic Jews.”) Someone here [*cough*] expressed a reluctance though to even ask a shailah…

BTW, your points 1 and 2 although roughly correct (actually Chazal didn’t “create” halacha, they’ve interpreted it. Chazal have instituted some Mitzvos D’Rabbonon [i.e. gezeiros and takkanos], but the issue we’ve been discussing here is a m’doriaisa that the poskim and meforshim that I’ve quoted and others base from a pasuk in the Torah.)

First I want to excuse myself for the repeated spelling and grammatical mistakes I make when posting as I generally don’t have the time to proofread what I’ve written.

If someone knows of a way that my computor can spellcheck for me what I write in a post I would appreciate if they let me know.

Kasha, here’s my view of who figuratively wears the pants in the house.

Fist of all, women in general are not inferior than men. Men are not inferior to women. They are both equal. A woman is not mechiuv to marry because she complete spiritually. A man is not complete in a spiritual sense until he gets married whereupon he can then be called a comlpete Man.

Can one take this concept and say women are superior then men? Absolutely not! A woman can be superior in a certain spiritual or physical sense just as she can be inferior in a different spiritual sense, such as noshim can’t posken shaalos. Every gender is equal, but different each with maalos and chasronos.

A wife is also not a slave that a master in the form of a husband, owns. She is not a chefetz, an object, but an equal partner to the husband to be treated with respect (and vice versa).

The ideal Yiddishe marriage is a partnership of three : the Aibishter, the husband and the wife.

However , although the genders are equal, they each have different roles to fulfill in marriage and in life in general.

I will not elaborate what each, the husband and the wife are mechiav to do for each other, rather I will focus on the aspect of who has the last word in the marriage.

1. According to halacha if a father and mother tell their child to do something the child first obeys what the father asked him to do and only then obeys the mother.

2. Halacha also dictates that a child cannot sit in a seat that is considered his father’s, however he may sit in his mothers seat

3. I’m not sure this is a halacha or a minhug, but I think it’s a minhug that in most heimishe communities the wife takes on the husband’s minhugim after marriage

There might be other halachos pertaining to this issue, but now I can only think of these.

One can see from the above halachos that the husband is the authority in the house.

That does not negate the fact that they are equal in terms of one not ruling the other in all aspects in the marriage or over one’s life, but rather in general, we go according to what the husband says.

For example, I took it for granted that my son will attend the cheder that my husband wanted. End of story for me here.

However when I felt my husband took a wrong approach chinuch wise to a certain behavior that my son needed to correct, I voiced my opnion. We had an argument (gasp) about that. In the end my husband conceded to my request to do it my way. B”H with siyatta dishmaya my opinion was the correct approach that helped my son with that particular issue.

So Kasha, yes, within the correct framework we need common sense to know where husband has the last word and where husband and wife need to compromise.

“So Kasha, yes, within the correct framework we need common sense to know where husband has the last word and where husband and wife need to compromise.”

THAT line explains it best. THAT is how marriage is supposed to work.

Thanks moderator for removing the bold in the text.

Kasha, I never heard of the word “semantics”. Maybe you meant syntax?

I read over my previous post twice and found the word equal only 5 times. However, it could be that you’re right because I somehow skip words when I try to read in a technical way i.e. proofread or in this case count the word equal.

In any case, even if I did use the word equal 6 times, I deliberately repeated that word so that my message will be understood because throughout the thread the message that women are not equal to men was continuously brought up. Like when you wrote “As far as the “equality” issue, the sources I quoted above, as well as previous comments I posted here, clearly indicate otherwise. Just as an orange isn’t “equal” to an apple (or better than an apple), men aren’t “equal” to women (or better than women.) So no, men and women are not equal.

I do hope I made myself clear that a husband’s role of authority in the marriage does not mutually exclude equality in marriage or in general between both genders.

Now to tie this into the theme of the thread I will finish with believing in equality between both genders does not mean believing feminism to be right, as feminism clouds the differences and consequently roles that Hashem created for each of us as individuals and as men and women to perform.

clearheaded:

Kasha, I never heard of the word “semantics”. Maybe you meant syntax?

I meant semantics.

From Merriam-Webster:

Pronunciation: si-?man-tiks

a : the meaning or relationship of meanings of a sign or set of signs; especially : connotative meaning b : the language used to achieve a desired effect on an audience especially through the use of words with novel or dual meanings.

IOW, from our most recent exchange, it appears we agree in principle but have just stressed different areas.

I can concede you only used equal 5 times not 6 [-:, but I still maintain the term equal is out of context in this regard. But again, this is simply a semantical issue, not a substantiative disagreement between us.

I do hope I made myself clear that a husband’s role of authority in the marriage does not mutually exclude equality in marriage or in general between both genders.

If I’m not mistaken, your comment from several hours ago discussing this authority was the first instance you acknowledged such in this thread. Is an employee’s manager, under whose authority he reports to at an office, his “equal” in the employment relationship? I don’t think that would be a correct usage of the term. Nevertheless, and again, that would simply be a semantical issue of how to describe the relationship – not a disagreement as to the nature of the relationship.

clearheaed:

Like I mentioned in my previous comment, you hadn’t acknowledged the authority until your Motzei Shabbos post. With that inclusion/clarification, I completely agreed with everything you wrote.

In no post I have made have I said he rules her in all aspects.

Ah Gutten Chodesh

The main thing is after such an argument we should all have ah gutt gebenshed chodesh and yuhr un ales gitz till ah hindred un zvunztzig, gezinterheit!!!