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About women going out proves my point again. In the Rambam’s times women probably went out very scarcely, while today women go out not only more, but any time they feel like it, to take a walk, go shopping etc. Does anybody have a right to say or imply that frum women are violating halacha?
This proves my point, that while halacha still applies – the way it’s applied today is not the same as it was applied generations ago, simply because our lifestyles have changed.
That is vastly different from the conservative or reform people who pick and choose halacha to fit their agenda.
Frum, God fearing Jews, observe halacha to the letter. However the way halacha is applied is different in each generation because the way of life in each generation is different.
Society may have gone down hill. That doesn’t mean what is done today by the masses is kosher.
hereorthere you wrote” You are not doing anything “different” with it, then how it was meant to be used.”
Who said that I did? I said that it is applied differently today, not that it is applied differently than how it’s meant to be applied.
You said “Perhaps you could say, that details of which aspect of the Halacha are in effect, have changed, but nothing in the Halacha has changed, since it includes all its details. “
Fine, you could say that but that still doesn’t change the fact that halacha is not lived in the same way as generations ago simply because the lifestyles were different and they couldn’t be applied in the same way.
Notice that I don’t say halacha changes to our lifestyle I say halacha is lived differently.
The Rambam is 100% correct that women shouldn’t go outside much. No, we should not be prancing around shopping, etc. anytime we feel like it. Ideally we should live within the halachic limitations as Rambam and others define it. Nevertheless in our mixed up society where everything is topsy turvy and everyone thinks they have the RIGHT to do as they wish, and how dare anyone infringe on their RIGHTS… well, if the Rabbonim insisted on them following things K’Halacha, there might be a revolution by those people. They might go completely off the derech. So the Rabbonim don’t crack down even on things that are really kneged halacha, so that they can convince these people to at least keep some of the important stuff.
missme, I for one would not make a revolution nor go off the derech. There are numerous ossurim Rabbonim have made in our current times that our parents were never restricted of.
In fact a lot of people are complaining that are becoming at risk kids because they are too restricted.
I think you are being very judgemental on a large part of the frum women who are modest, refined and live halachically proper lives.
Take me for instance. I gave up a career to be a stay at home mom (granted today I’ve been playing a hookey and ran to the computor whenever I got a chance) but being a stay at home mom is very boring for me. Are you going to judge me because I sometimes go to the mall to air ?
“We also have an explicit pasuk in the Torah that a woman gives birth… “
Not to mention an explicit pasuk that man is obligated to work hard to provide parnassah for his family (he, and not his wife, has this obligation). It is amazing to me how the words of the Torah are manipulated by people trying to “prove” their hashkafos are correct, but only when those words suit them.
Before feminism, women did not work outside the home, either. So by all accounts, all the kollel wives must be feminists.
clearheaded… what’s your point in saying that numerous ossurim Rabbonim have made in our current times, that our parents were never restricted of?? are you chas vshalom thinking the Rabbonim Shlita (or zt”l) made things up??? c’v!! Unfortunately many from the parents generation were lax on certain halachas. So the Rabbonim shlita educated then and brought them up to a higher madreiga, where they are now refraining from certain assurim.
For example, once upon a time many or most people in America were not familiar with shatnes. And they would wear shatnes clothhing, without even knowing they were violating halahca. Baruch Hahsem the great, yet little known, anuv and tzaddik Yosef Rosenberg single-handedly made the American oilem aware of the shatnes issue. Before him so many FRUM yidden wore shatnes inadvertently. Now we don’t. This is a good thing.
May the Rabbonim shlita have the koach to continue educating am yisroel and keeping us away from assurim — especially those we do inadvertantly. And our children iy”h will too one day say “this is assur” – our parents may have inadvertantly violated this assur, but b”h today we are educated.
“being a stay at home mom is very boring for me.”
A woman’s place is at home. Yes, I’ll repeat, a woman’s place is at home. Nothing for us to be ashamed of. The home is our most natural habitat. Doesn’t mean we can’t go out… but we need to be always cognizant that we belong at home.
“Are you going to judge me because I sometimes go to the mall to air ?”
I won’t, but surely everyone will be judged for their actions. I’m sorry that it needs to be said, but girls shouldn’t be going out in public to ‘air’. This is EXACTLY Rambam’s point.
Hereorthere, I apologize for reading your tone wrong. It sounded angry but its hard to read tone over the internet.
I’ll be back later to answer your questions/statements.
I just powerwalked and met two Chassidishe women in turbans and SAS shoes powerwalking. Now these women who are bringing up large erliche families are being judged here, because they like me could’ve jumped on the treadmill and then sat outside in the backyard where nobody sees us. Instead we went for a powerwalk.
So that’s it? If some people in klal Yisroel does something that is in the eyes of others assur the other has a right to judge them?
missme, you wrote “well, if the Rabbonim insisted on them following things K’Halacha, there might be a revolution by those people. They might go completely off the derech. So the Rabbonim don’t crack down even on things that are really kneged halacha, so that they can convince these people to at least keep some of the important stuff. “
What you are essentially saying is that Rabbonim are not assuring things that should be assured because the people will rebel. I don’t understand how any person can say Rabbonim are not acting in a certain way where they don’t speak out against people doing the wrong thing because of the tzibbor’s reaction. Goodness!
Now when I explained to you that the Rabbonim are not afraid of a “revolution” because they have assured a lot of things for our generation, you still attack me as you wrote ” clearheaded… what’s your point in saying that numerous ossurim Rabbonim have made in our current times, that our parents were never restricted of?? are you chas vshalom thinking the Rabbonim Shlita (or zt”l) made things up??? c’v!! “
I have NOT EVEN REMOTELY implied that Rabbonim make this up! I have as explained above said that Rabbonim assur a lot of things these days and they are not afraid of a revolution. Is that what you think of our holy nation that we will rebel if we are told to do something?
Furthermore you are bashing me, a woman who sacrificed a lot to do right thing and GO AGAINST MY NATURE TO STAY HOME AND BE A STAY AT HOME MOM FOR MY BABY AND BE HOME WHEN MY KIDS COME HOME. I don’t understand how anyone could bash someone saying that being home is boring and despite that stays home because she feels its right. Do you thing I created my inborn nature, or do you think Hashem gave it to me?
I don’t undersatnd how one can bash someones stating the facts of life (me), klal Yisroel, Rabbonim, or debate reality because it doesn’t fit their beliefs. I don’t think that’s called debating honestly.
If you want to see how I debate in an honest fashion, go look in the Worms in Fish thread and see how after one post I was debating something that I wasn’t sure what halacha as it pertains to me (i.e. what my Rov holds- Rabbonim have different opinions on this issue)is. I called up my Rov and got my facts straight. And then when I made an opinion regarding this halacha and someone condradicted me and also suggested I ask my Rov why he poskened as he did. Despite feeling uncomfortable to bother him, but wanting to know the facts I called up my Rov again. Sure enough that other person was right and I conceded to that other poster by saying he’s right. Check it out. you can see exactly what I’ve written in the Worms in Fish thread.
That’s called debating in an honest fashion. You get your facts right and don’t attack the other person for having a diiferent shitta than you.
I wanted to finish off with air out, not air when I go to the mall. In any case, yes I will be judged for going to the mall by Hakodesh Burach Hu himself who sees and knows what a sacrifice it is for me be a stay at home mom.
If you want to make sure that every aspect of your life is observed according to “explicit” posukim and meforshim then go ahead. But you cannot critisize me for disagreeing with you.
EDITED
missme me I meant walked on the treadmill …
hereorthere, Some minhagim that are adopted by a large part of klal Yisroel are not shaalos to be asked. Taking an example of the afikomin as I’ve mentioned yesterday, let me expound on this. My husband will not ask a shaalah if he is doing the right thing here because this is how his father, gandfather, uncles, cousins, his Rebbe and his fellow Chassidim do it. This is a minhag.
Now minhagim are what large segments of frum Jews adopted depending where they live. This is transfered from from father to son and within a particular community. There are no shaalos to ask here.
Then there is Daas Yehadus, what is the accepted practice in klal Yisroel in each generation. My humble opinion is that this becomes minhagim.
Now some people on this thread judged minhagim and das Yehadus not to be within the parameters of halacha. That is not for us to decide. Only the Rabbonim can do that.
Halachic shaalos come up when one doesn’t know what the din or the minhug is. These shaalos can be like what do I do if I used a milchig fork for a hot fleishig dish or asking one’s Rov if they need to or what they should and how they should check for worms in fish.
clearheaded… I suggest you not be afraid to ask your Rov another shaila whether 1. it is appropriate for a woman to ‘air out’ by going to the mall and 2. whether a wife is obligated to listen and follow what her husband tells her.
Please let us know his response to the shaila. You may not like to hear what your Rov tells you, but don’t let that prevent you from even asking.
Missme,
So, IYHO, when exactly is it permitted for a woman to leave the house? (And before you say “only when absolutely necessary,” I’m going to ask you to define that.)
The Wolf
Taking the children to school, going to shul, buying necessities (not stam shopping-shpatziring outside), and other errands or necessary functions. And even there if it is avoidable is should be avoided. (Maybe for example you can get groceries ordered by phone and delivered; and other examples like that.) Basically when its necessary its okay; when it isn’t necessary it should be avoided where possible.
Did you ask your Rov whether you can judge all the frum women who do air out in the mall (of course powerwalking doesn’t fit into your idea that it’s against halacha even though it falls into the same category because walking can be done on a treadmill at home and getting fresh air and sunshine can be gotten by sitting out in the backyard or porch where nobody sees so its the same shaaloh as the mall, but that doesn’t bother you), and judge a woman who’s bored at home even though she didn’t give herself that nature?
When you come back with that answer then I’ll ask mine.
In any case, by suggesting that you miss my whole point regarding minhugim and daas yehadus.
I have not said anywhere that a wife can faif un a husband, so don’t make it seem like I did. Besides for minhugim in today’s day which wives automatically take on the husband’s, husbands and wives compromise some following their husban’s directive more and some less, but certainly not like they did in the Rambam’s times.
Unless, you maybe wash your husband’s feet, and wait on him and serve him all his wishes whenever he wants them. So maybe we’ll make one exception here.
Taking the children to school, going to shul, buying necessities (not stam shopping-shpatziring outside), and other errands or necessary functions. And even there if it is avoidable is should be avoided. (Maybe for example you can get groceries ordered by phone and delivered; and other examples like that.) Basically when its necessary its okay; when it isn’t necessary it should be avoided where possible.
So, would I be correct in stating that in your household, any of the following activities are verbotten:
— A wife meeting her sister or friend for lunch.
— Taking the kids (especially daughters) to the playground
— Going to a wedding of a friend (I’ll assume you’ll allow for close relatives)
— Buying a present for her husband/parents/friends (unless done online, of course)
— Going to school for a degree (online programs excepted)
— Stam taking a walk
— Going to a family get-together with extended family
— Attending non-mandatory school functions (teas, fundraisers, etc. — I’ll assume you allow parent-teacher meetings)
Am I correct that all these activities are verbotten in your household for your wife and daughters?
The Wolf
clearheaded… that too is another worthwhile shaila to ask (powerwalking and backyard) so you can ask that at the same time… why do you seem so reluctant to even ask a shaila?? are you perhaps afraid of the answer you might get?? that is sure what it seem as… its apparent you don’t want to ask this shaila cause you know what answer you’ll get and don’t want to hear it… that is a big problem in society today, people know something may be wrong so they don’t even ask a shaila. prove us wrong, and ask this shaila and let us know what you Rov paskened.
wolfishmusings… some things on your list are essentially necessary, and some things are not. i’d rather not break it down for you since 1. its different for everybody and 2. the list of what yes and what no will be endless.
some things on your list are essentially necessary
Are they? I don’t see any item on my list that is *absolutely* necessary.
Which do you allow in your household, and why?
The Wolf
I have not said anywhere that a wife can faif un a husband,
Please forgive the ignorance, but what, exactly, does “feif un” mean?
The Wolf
wolfishmusing, i believe faif un means ‘disobey’ in yiddish.
being sameach chosson v’kalla may be necessary. like i said, everything depends on the person, circumstance, and a whole bunch of factors. its hard to answer a theoretical list.
clearheaded, you said “some following their husban’s directive more and some less”. HUH?? I NEVER heard of a so-called “minhug” of following their husband’s directive less. where do you hear of such nonexistent so-called ‘minugim’?? it is not right to make up a ‘minhug’ to justify something that is being done wrong. you really need to ask a shaila and not be afraid to hear what you rov will pasken.
hold on, missme while I call my Rov whether I could walk to my baby’s sitter because I have an apt. and can’t take my baby with me and we have one car which my husband uses during the day so I can’t take the car. Hold on while I ask whether I should take a taxi. Hmm, on the other hand – me alone in a taxi with a strange man, maybe that’s not so tzniusdig. One minute let my ask Rov these complicated shaalos.
Wolf, feif un means to diregard in Yiddish.
it is patently obvious you dont want to ask these two shaila’s we discussed above cause you know (and dont like) what the answers will be.
case closed.
Thanks for the translation.
being sameach chosson v’kalla may be necessary. like i said, everything depends on the person, circumstance, and a whole bunch of factors. its hard to answer a theoretical list.
My list is hardly theoretical. Aside from going for a degree, just about every one those is situation a typical family will face on a fairly regular basis.
The Wolf
Missme, my husband doesn’t hold by the flatbush eruv and I did before we got married. After discussing it with a Rav, I still hold by the eruv and my husband does not.
Not everything in life is clear cut.
sjsinnyc… so for your husband it is chillul shabbos but for you it is not?? something doesnt smell right in denmark. didnt you say on another thread you are mo??
missme do you really think that just because you decided that something is wrong with something I will ask my Rov about it?
Btw did you ask the shailoh I asked you to ask your Rov about?
it is patently obvious you dont want to ask these two shaila’s we discussed above cause you know (and dont like) what the answers will be.
A person is not required to ask a shaila because an internet poster tells him/her that they think it’s necessary.
Heck, earlier in this thread, a poster said I needed to ask a shaila if I’m required to divorce my wife because I don’t force her to follow my orders. Needless to say, I’m not asking shailos because an anonymous Internet poster tells me I have to.
The Wolf
sjsinnyc… so for your husband it is chillul shabbos but for you it is not??
Perhaps that’s not the case. I don’t use the Flatbush eruv – but I don’t look at those who do as mechallelei Shabbos.
The Wolf
Missme, I am MO. I lived in Brooklyn as a single girl. I asked my local Rabbi about using the eruv and was told it was halachically OK.
My husband grew up in Brooklyn and his family held the eruv was not ok. We discussed this with our Rav before getting married. I also didn’t necessarily adopt my husband’s leniencies in certain areas.
We all recieve different piskei halacha. I follow mine, you follow yours.
I also have friends that did not take on Chalav Yisrael when they got married to men who did.
Not everything is so cut and dried.
oy has our generation fallen. and to what depths! and they actually think they have risen…
How terrible. A jew uses the eruv after consulting with a Rabbi!
oy has our generation fallen. and to what depths! and they actually think they have risen…
What, specifically, is this in reference to?
The Wolf
oy has our generation fallen!
We are practically ants compared to our ancestors in Europe. At least they knew they had to ask a Rov, we make up ideas and claim they are “True”.
Oy!
EDITED
missme,
Are you chassidishe?
i hate titles but regular frum is what people call us.
Missme,
You still haven’t answered my question. What, specifically, were you decrying when you said “oy has our generation fallen?”
Were you decrying that someone doesn’t ask a shaila based on your say-so?
Were you decrying the fact that SJS has a different practice than her husband?
Were you decrying the fact that she uses the eruv at all?
Were you decrying the fact that I’m not asking a shaila about divorcing my wife?
Were you decrying that SJS asked a shaila about the eruv and you didn’t like the answer?
In short, what were you decrying?
The Wolf
lets not make a gemara out of it, LOL! i was simply crying (im not sure decrying is the right word), in general, for the depths our generation has fallen. not asking shailas, practicing halacha differently than and not complying with your husband are just some examples.
i was simply crying (im not sure decrying is the right word), in general, for the depths our generation has fallen. not asking shailas, practicing halacha differently than and not complying with your husband are just some examples.
First you decry people for not asking shailos. Then you decry the fact that SJS *asked a shaila* and got an answer (i.e. that she could have a different practice than her husband).
The Wolf
“SJS *asked a shaila* and got an answer that you didn’t like (i.e. that she could have a different practice than her husband).”
a wife is supposed to follow her husbands minhugim and psak din of her husbands posek. it is ridiculous that if her husbands rov holds carrying in flatbush is mechallel shabbos (which is skillah) that she then carries. a wife cant do what her husbands rov holds is a mdoraisa, even if her pre-marriage rov held differently. once married she goes by the husband. she said she’s mo, so i know they change things to accommodate modern sensibilities, but that doesnt make it right.
I cannot make a word bold or change the color or font style or size and there is no underlining, or option for Italics.
for italics:
<em>your text here</em>for bold print:
<strong>your text here</strong>it is ridiculous that if her husbands rov holds carrying in flatbush is mechallel shabbos (which is skillah) that she then carries.
I don’t use the eruv, but I don’t consider those who do to be mechallelei Shabbos. Why do you assume SJS’s rav holds that way?
once married she goes by the husband.
Obviously, her rav found a reason to say not to. Do you know the reasoning for his p’sak?
The Wolf
“i was simply crying (im not sure decrying is the right word), in general, for the depths our generation has fallen. not asking shailas, practicing halacha differently than and not complying with your husband are just some examples. “
missme who’s not asking shaalos? You problably meant to say, the shaaloh that you asked someone to ask.
Praticing halacha differently than what? If you mean being ruled by the husband in all aspects then;
Are you supposed to comply with her husbands wishes if what he says is not the correct thing to do? That’s the only way that one can say a husband rules over her in all aspects.
“HUH?? I NEVER heard of a so-called “minhug” of following their husband’s directive less. where do you hear of such nonexistent so-called ‘minugim’?? it is not right to make up a ‘minhug’ to justify something that is being done wrong. you really need to ask a shaila and not be afraid to hear what you rov will pasken. “
I never said it’s a minhug not to follow whatever your husband tells you even if you feel it’s wrong to do or you have a different opinion. I said that that is how some women today conduct themselves today. The wife’s opinion in a healthy marriage carries weight.
oy has our generation fallen. and to what depths! and they actually think they have risen…
missme, why do you think our generation thinks they have risen?
“why do you seem so reluctant to even ask a shaila?? “
Is everything a shailah?
This entire discussion by Yeshivishe people of whether or not a woman can go outside the home is bordering on the questionable. If you beleive that the halacha is she cannot go out, then there should be no question of her going out to support her husband, because that is REALLY GOING OUT!!!!!! It exposes her to the outside world on a daily basis, possibly brings her into contact with non-Jews or males of Jewish or non-Jewish persuasion, and allows her to be influenced by the distasteful stuff that goes on on public transportation and in the street. Anyone who believes that women should ONLY be in the home, had better be prepared to put his money where is mouth is.
P.S. I personally believe a woman’s place IS in the home. I just see what happens to many kids when they are brought up by non-Jewish babysitters.
EDITED
oomis, I agree with you that mothers were created not only to give birth to children but to bring them up as well.
I’m imagining a scenerio and I’m wondering what peoples’ responses would be if such a situation would be real.
Imagine a husband tells a wife,”my dear wife, I want you to strictly follow the halacha that a woman may not go out more than she needs to. Therefore, I want you to stay home and not go out of the house. Don’t worry I’ll take care of all your needs. Whatever you cannot shop through the internet I’ll buy for you.
Also, while I understand that you feel that going to the mall to air out is vital for your mental health, I don’t feel it is.
And because I am your husband you must listen to me.”
How would the posters here discribe the husband:
1. abusive
2. acting within halachic rights and therefore not abusive
3. other
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