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On the Tznius thread there have been some erroneous posts about feminism.
The claim that I supposedly “questioned the manhood of Avroham Avinu” was made by someone, first claiming that “Avroham was to obey his wife”, then claiming in a separate post that “they could not see how any marriage could have one spouse obeying the other”.
Which is it?
Also the idea was expressed that so many boys “grow up to think of women only as objects” that women must indoctrinate their boys with anti male feminist idiology in other to “pre-empt” the mysoginy.
They claim they are not ‘against boys’ or for feminism.
But they do not indoctrinate their girls to preempt the automatic male bashing that occurs when such loshon hara against boys is so strongly believed.
Also the claim has been made that there is no feminist agenda in public schools.
The public school teachers are overwhelmingly female, and since most of them are feminists
(just ask them, when they give interviews or when the subject coems up in class they are almost always for it and they promote abortions) no one claim with any credibility, that none of their idiology comes through in how they teach.
EDITED
If you can give a M’kor from anywhere that Sarah told Avrohom not to take Yitzchak to the Akeidah you can post that part of your statement again.
The claim that I supposedly “questioned the manhood of Avroham Avinu” was made by someone, first claiming that “Avroham was to obey his wife”, then claiming in a separate post that “they could not see how any marriage could have one spouse obeying the other”.
The claim was made by me. If you think I said something wrong, it’s okay to call me out by name. I don’t mind.
The former comment was “tongue in cheek.”
You stated:
“and DH is giving them a strong role model as a man.”
What kind of ‘man’?
One who obeys his wife?
The implication (as I read it, anyway) is that a ‘man’ who listens to his wife is not a man (or at least not a strong role model.” My comment (again, tongue in cheek) was meant to state that sometimes “real men” DO listen to their wives.
Nonetheless, I can’t imagine a marriage where one partner has all the power and the other must follow blindly. To me, that’s not husband/wife marriage, that’s master/slave relationship.
I’m not going to argue with you over feminism because I don’t think you and I even have the same definition of feminism. As such, arguing it’s merits or lack thereof is pointless.
The Wolf
edited because part of Wolf’s response was to a portion of the post that no longer exists, (also he spelled “tongue” incorrectly)
When reading your post I thought of Haman. He wanted Vashti killed because otherwise wives will learn from her to disobey their husbands. B”H we have the Torah, and no way does it say or imply that women are objects. The Torah brings many examples of Great Women.
What are you trying to imply?
(also he spelled “tongue” incorrectly)
Chatasi. 🙂
The Wolf
estherh
“When reading your post I thought of Haman. He wanted Vashti killed because otherwise wives will learn from her to disobey their husbands. “
what’s wrong with that?
what’s wrong with that?
For that particular time, place and circumstance, perhaps nothing.
The Wolf
Women are on a higher Spritual level then Men. As the caretaker of the home, she is the one who sets the tone in her house, by allowing to run things smoothly. She is in charge of the Kashrus and ensures Kedushat Yisrael. She has the opportunity to do so much Chesed by caring for her family and friends. Why should changing diapers and cooking feel like burden. It is a wonderful opportunity to grow!! Feeding your family and ensuring they have healthy and nutrious meals so they can grow to serve Hashem, how fortunate. Women are in charge of many important aspects of life. A woman who does what she is suppose to do and realizes all the blessing that she receives from Hashem by following the Torah and keeping it’s mitzvot, is guaranteed to feel fulfilled and accomplished.
Re: the discussion of Vashti, Mordechai HaTzaddik when asked by Achashveros for his recommendation what to do about Vashti’s refusal to appear before him, Mordechai declined answering (he told Achashveros that this question should be presented to the royal advisors) since Mordechai was afraid if he recommended that Vashti be let off the hook he would be blamed for future insubordination by wives. (And if he recommended execution, he would be blamed when Achasheveros started missing Vashti.)
Why should changing diapers and cooking feel like burden. It is a wonderful opportunity to grow!! Feeding your family and ensuring they have healthy and nutrious meals so they can grow to serve Hashem, how fortunate.
If changing diapers and feeding your family are wonderful opportunities for spiritual growth, why should they be exclusively female domains?
The Wolf (who has changed many diapers and cooked many meals)
Wolf, not to be haughty, but this thread is more about me 🙂
Hereorthere, you are clearly misunderstanding what I said.
Many aspects of society (both Jewish and non) influence our children. I want to start young making sure my sons NEVER view women as objects, not that they WILL. There is a big difference. Its like saying I want my kids to keep certain halacha before they are obligated because I don’t want them to think certain things are ok and then have to change. Its important to build a proper foundation – that is what chinuch is all about. I am not aiming to emasculate my sons, just for them to respect that they are no better than women because they were born male.
I also think you don’t understand feminism or the teaching profession. Feminism is about women having the same choices as men (especially as it relates to jobs, salaries etc). A woman CHOOSING to be the breadwinner and support her husband in Kollel is only fully possible because of feminism. Without it, a woman would never be paid a living wage like a breadwinning man is.
Why are so many women teachers? Its because the hours are shorter and they get summers off. They can spend more time with their children. I think they especially enjoy younger children more than most men. Are there competent men who are teachers? Sure. Are there competent women who are math/science people? Yes – you are talking to one of them.
I think your ideas of what feminism are are skewed.
“why should they be exclusively female domains?”
Men and women have different roles and functions in life. Some things in life are primarily (or exclusively) male functions, whilst others are primarily (or exclusively) female.
Wolf, not to be haughty, but this thread is more about me 🙂
Oh, I knew that. But he started out with a comment from me, so I felt I needed to respond.
The Wolf
Some things in life are primarily (or exclusively) male functions, whilst others are primarily (or exclusively) female.
So, does that mean (in your view) it’s a perversion of what the Torah wants if a man changes more diapers or cooks more meals than his wife?
The Wolf
If she wears the pants in the house, yes.
Kasha, that’s changing his question.
My husband puts up dinner many nights because he comes home earlier than I do. He also picks up the kids from daycare because he drives to work and I take the bus. My schedule is such that I can’t do drop-off and pick-up and he can.
If she wears the pants in the house, yes.
But what if she doesn’t? What if the husband and wife view their marriage as a partnership — specifically a partnership of equals.
Is it then (again, in your opinion) a perversion of what the Torah wants if the man changes more diapers or cooks more meals?
The Wolf
mazal
EXACTLY
Thank you!!
I also wholeheartedly say mazal77 got it right.
“specifically a partnership of equals.”
Apples aren’t “equal” to oranges, and husband’s aren’t “equal” to wives.
husband’s aren’t “equal” to wives
No, my wife and I not equals. But we *are* equal partners in our marriage.
The Wolf
“No, my wife and I not equals. But we *are* equal partners in our marriage.”
That *really* clarifies matters. You’re not equals but you are equal partners.
Let me sleep on that one. 🙂
I gave up a career to be a stay at home mom, to be able to be home for when my kids come home and not have to send my baby to a babysitter. However, changing daipers, cooking, laundry and everything that involves housework bores me to tears. (lately I’m spending too much time here because of this reason).
While I do agree that these things are important, but not every woman can enjoy doing these things.
I think in today’s society we focus too much on our wants and as Jews our life needs to revolve on what we need to do to fulfill our tafkid.
If that works out with our wants, then great. But even if it doesn’t we still need to do what Hashem requires of us.
I feel that women should stay at home whenever possible untill their kids are old enough to handle a working mother. They should not be brought up with babysitters, nor come home to an empty home without a mother because she is busy working (like I did). If a mother can work around her kids schedules and work when the kids are older and in school, that’s great.
That *really* clarifies matters. You’re not equals but you are equal partners.
What’s so difficult to understand?
I used to work for two business partners. They were not the equal of each other, but they were equal partners in the business.
Similarly, my wife and I are not equals. She has her strengths and I have mine. But in terms of what goes on in the marriage, we are equal partners, meaning that we both have equal say in how things in the household are run.
The Wolf
“She has her strengths and I have mine.”
That’s another way of saying what I earlier said. Men have their strengths and women have theirs.
“we both have equal say in how things in the household are run.”
That’s at odds with the way the Torah dictates a marriage is to be run.
That’s at odds with the way the Torah dictates a marriage is to be run.
I challenge that notion. I challenge the notion that the man has to be “the boss” in the household. I challenge the notion that I have the right to unilaterally impose my will on my wife (or that she has the right to do that to me).
The Wolf
ON EDIT: I challenge the notion that is *must* be that way. If your marriage works fine for you that way — then fine — that works for you. But it does NOT work for me.
The Wolf
BS”D:
Rav Miller in his books always said the wife is the “Queen to the King”, and the husband should have the “final say” in all matters. For that reason, he held that under no circumstances a woman should be the breadwinner in the household, as it would cause her to act like the King (not the exact language, I apologize to Rav Miller for not getting his exact intent).
The “yeshivish” velt, on the other hand (as per Rav Wolfson, Rav S. Kotler (IIRC) and others) believe that the wife should be in charge of the home and children, so that the husband can be free to learn. This would mean the wife being in charge of issues in the home to allow the husband to follow more spiritual endeavours. This also gave rise to the “Kollel” movement, where the wife takes care of the home and is the main breadwinner, allowing the husband to sit and learn.
edited
“I challenge that notion.”
You don’t challange me. You challenge the Torah. See Shulchan Aruch (EH 80:15, DH u’Mah she’Chosav Yir’eh); the Rema; Rambam perek 21, halacha 7; Rambam 21:10; Rosh (5:31).
probably 95% of americans would agree with wolfs position here (at least in public). it is certainly a most logical and “state of the art” position. throughout the thousands of years of history no one would have ever agreed with such a position, but now in modern society we all can agree with it.
“That’s at odds with the way the Torah dictates a marriage is to be run.”
Why “at odds?”
If anything the Torah specifies SO many cases where the women of the household were the voice of the marriage (and the voice of Klal Yisroel):
Sara telling Avraham to send Hagar away with her wild son, and Hashem ratified her decision and told Avraham to do whatever his wife tells him
He told Avrohom, who would make the decision, to listen to Sarah, he didn’t tell Sarah to go ahead and do it herself, which would be unthinkable
Rivka superceding Yitzchak’s intention to bensch Esav, because she knew Yaakov spiritually deserved the bracha and Esav did not,
She could not tell Yitzchak to bentsh Asav, since he would not listen to her and it was obviously his decision.
Rochel Emainu’s removal of the teraphim, so her father could not have them for avoda zara (although Yaakov ended up inadvertently causing her early death, nevertheless, the teraphim were never found and her will prevailed in that regard,
She did not tell him because he would not have allowed it, clearly it was his decision not hers that would prevail and she also determined in whose tent Yaakov would sleep on a given night when she “sold” her night to Leah in exchange for the dudaim. Even thought his was not regarded as a praiseworthy action, to make light of a Tzaddik, nonetheless it shows that women had a serious say in fundamentals of the marriage
Tzipporah was the moheles of her children, where Moshe Rabeinu had not done so. Are we to believe he did not know the halacha? Nonetheless, he did not tell her to do it, it was she who was spurred to action and thus saved HIS life.
In Tanach we see, Devorah haneviyah, Yael and Siserah, Rus, Chana, etc. etc. etc. and although these women were not being depicted in terms of marriage, they nonetheless achieved greatness in Judaism, that surely is NOT at odds with anything in the Torah.
No one said that the greatness of women is at odds with the Torah
Kasha: Huh? That has nothing to do with the topic, and besides, she (or you) can hire a cleaning lady (or wet nurse, and the case of the Beis Shmuel there).
See all the mekoros I referred to.
Both the Rambam and the Shulchan Aruch at the places you quoted merely list tasks that the wife should perform for her husband.
I found no place in those sources (I did not have time to look up the Rosh) where it says that the husband is the “boss” of the house and has the final say on matters — nor anyplace where it says that it *must* be that way.
The Wolf
throughout the thousands of years of history no one would have ever agreed with such a position, but now in modern society we all can agree with it.
Until very recently, spousal rape was not a crime.
Throughout thousands of years no one would have ever agreed with the position that it’s possible for a husband to rape his wife, but now, in a modern society, we all agree with it.
IOW, just because an idea has held popular sway for thousands of years does not necessarily mean it’s a good (or bad) one.
The Wolf
wolf
yes that’s true. i just meant to point out how the thinking of people not guided exclusively by the Eternal Holy Torah is so subtley and completely dominated by what we now call “political correctness”
A woman can definetly influence her husband for bad or good. Like the story of the married couple who divorced. The woman remarried a wicked man and he became good and the man remarried a wicked woman and he became wicked.
Also, I had a story of a couple where the wife grew more spritual then her husband, but she did not force it upon her husband, so she wisely, started playing torah tapes more often, had torah classes in her home, that eventually, her husband became was influenced as well. Hashem give women that spritually “Binah” women’s intution, to wisely help her family to grow. How can a woman feel so low of herself?? Her attitude about her life is important. It can make her feel depressed or it can nourish her and realize the importance of what she is doing.
I have been able to go to Torah classes and most of what I wrote was from attending these classes. They have helped me change my attitude about the importance of Women in the Torah. If you can’t get out, there are so many torah CD’s and websites to listen too. Especially when you are doing housework. While folding laundry, or cooking dinner, you can be listening to a parshah CD. Talk about Multitasking!!
And Wolf, of course changing Diapers and cooking for you family is a chesed for men as well!!
“Both the Rambam and the Shulchan Aruch at the places you quoted merely list tasks that the wife should perform for her husband.”
Not should. *Must.*
See Igros Moshe, Orach Chaim 4:49, for Rav Moshe’s strident opposition to feminism. Someone also mentioned Rav Miller above; this is the actual passage from “Awake My Glory”:
1095. There cannot be two kings. The marriage relationship is two-fold. 1) The wife is submissive. This is not only Jewish but natural. There can be no harmony when there are two commanders. Without this indispensable condition, the home is disordered. “Arrogance is unbecoming a woman” – Megillah 14B. For a man it is not an ornament, but for a woman it is as if she wore a mustache. 2) The second, but equally essential foundation: a man must always demonstrate respect for his wife. This is “the way of Jewish men that… honor and support their wives in truth” as stated in the Jewish marriage contract. “He honors her more than his own body” – Yevamos 62B, Bava Metzia 59A. He is the captain, but she is the First Mate whose counsel is respected. She cannot be made a doormat, she need not beg for money, she deserves some assistance in the house chores, and the husband sides with her against his kin. He must express frequent appreciation and give words of encouragement, and he should remember his wife from time to time with gifts, big or little. Husband and wife should always say “Please” and “Thank You” and never forget to be always polite to each other.
oomis1105
voice of the marriage doesn’t mean being equal!
a boss listens to his employees, they’re never equal
guided exclusively by the Eternal Holy Torah
Separate question — is there *anyone* whose thinking is guided *exclusively* by the Torah? Is there anyone who was not affected by the culture surrounding him/her, his/her upbringing, experiences, etc. Is there anyone who is so totally divorced not only from external influences but even their own internal personality, biases and experiences?
I don’t think so.
The Wolf
let’s forget the torah for one second (i heard those gasps)
no industry, organization, house, corporation, politics, etc..
can run with 2 bosses. that’s why there is always a president and vice president.
i won’t get into male is better than female, even if you feel the female should be the boss, that’s OK! but it can’t and won’t work when 2 ppl think they’re equal.
hence the high divorce rate.
See Igros Moshe, Orach Chaim 4:49, for Rav Moshe’s strident opposition to feminism
Although the thread started with feminism, the particular subtopic is not about feminism.
The Wolf
EDITED
Not should. *Must.*
So, are you going to force your wife to wash your face, arms and legs even when she doesn’t want to?
Does your wife pour every cup you drink (when she’s present and not a nidda, of course)?
Does your wife stand around to wait on you?
The Wolf
Rav Miller calls the husband “captain” and the wife “first mate”.
Another passage from “Awake My Glory”:
1105. Before marriage it is imperative to ascertain the young woman’s attitude toward feminism and “women’s rights” and careerism. It is out of the question to build a Jewish home, or any home whatsoever, if the prospective wife has been tainted with these anti-natural and anti-social preachings. The woman’s career and happiness are in her home: absolutely and entirely. Her husband, her children and her home are the expressions of her personality and her Free Will, and they are her chief forms of serving G-d. The modern orthodox “Rebbetzin” with a college degree and a job in secular professions is a misfit even in a non-Jewish home. The ideas of revolt against a husband’s authority and the unrealistic dream of equal leadership in the family, lead only to unhappiness and failure, and very frequently to divorce. A Beth Jacob girl should be wed soon after or before graduation. Every day after she leaves the Beth Jacob marks another step away from idealism, for the street and the office and the secular school have an unfailing effect which increases from day to day. It is never a simple matter to achieve harmony in the home; effort and wisdom and fear of G-d are required. But with the additional burden of feminism, all problems become aggravated; and like all the unnatural and anti-social affectations of the libertarians this leads only to failure and unhappiness.
Please let it be noted for the record that I responded to Kasha concerning Rav Miller’s quote, but that it was edited.
The Wolf
no industry, organization, house, corporation, politics, etc..
can run with 2 bosses.
There are plenty of businesses run with two equal partners to prove you wrong.
The Wolf
WolfishMusings: But it was always and is Assur, and that never changed.
This (women being in charge of the home and income, vs. the husband only working) did change over time (industrial revolution, two income homes), but the basis always existed in halacha (the concept of “Aini Nezones V’Aini Os’e”).
End story: We follow halacha, and halacha never changes (yes there are halachos that go Basar social norms, but lets save that for another thread). Women working and not taking care of the home (hiring someone else or having the husband do it) is, and always was, within the realm of Halacha. (Noted that Rav Miller holds its a bad idea).
Kasha: A woman is Chayiv unless someone else does it. See the Bais Shmuel I quoted. Men are also Chayiv to feed their wives, as well as providing clothing (and paying tuition for their sons!). Someone mentioned the divorce rate; If only the husbands and wives would worry about their own chiyuvim instead of each others, the divorce rate would be way down (quote from my Moshgiach).
And thank you for the correct quote of Rav Miller.
Gavra,
I never commented on women working outside the home. I merely commented on the point that the husband *must* be the boss of his household — even if the husband and wife would want it otherwise (i.e. where they be equal partners).
The Wolf
Wolf: What does it mean to be “the boss”? Have the final say? In what?
Reminds me of a quote I read on a different thread in the coffee room a while back (yes its there:)
“The man may be the head of the household, but the woman is the neck. And she can point the head any which way she wants”.
“There are plenty of businesses run with two equal partners to prove you wrong.”
yes wolf, go to court and you can see how they all turned out.
even partnerships are usually 51%-49%. why not 50-50? for the same reason.
and don’t say i know a company that’s 50-50 partners and it works, there is always the exception!
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