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Again, it’s not assur. There’s no issur negiah, and presumably the women will stop dancing. The question if it ever ends there.
Moq, father (or groom) isn’t strictly assur on its own. (i.e. Assuming the unlikely event that all the women would stop dancing from when the father came in’ until he left.) But brothers and others is assur.
Helpful
But brothers and others is assur
If they (men & Kallah) are not touching, then why would there be a difference. I don’t think there is one.
If they are, I believe you are correct, even though there is no Issur of Negiyah. (It is somehwere up there, I can’t remember the source offhand).
The Groom is a Dav’ar Mechuar and shows off what will be later, and I would imagine that the Rabbonim would frown on such a practice.
wolf: thank you for bringing humor and lightness to the coffee room while still keeping it real and to the point. after spending a few hours in the hospital trying to get my son’s hospital records to give to the next specialist, i needed to laugh. thank you! tizku l’mitzvos.
You’re welcome. I’m glad I was able to make someone laugh… especially when they needed it. I hope your son has a speedy refuah shelaimah.
The Wolf
Even putting aside the issurim discussed, how does a father dancing with the kallah, surrounded by many women, fit into the Shulchan Aruch’s dictum of “????? ?? ????? ????” (stay very far away from women)?
myfriend:
Can I assume you are a woman?
Do you *really* think that the SA’s dictum of ????? ?? ????? ???? applies to one’s daughter as well?
The Wolf
Myfriend
Don’t bother quoting from that “extreme” text called The Shulchon Aruch iit may offend some peoples “sensitivities.”
GAW- you’d be mistaken
squeak:
I’ll wait for her/him to answer.
What if he/she doesn’t want to be hit upon?
Fair enough. But if I’m wrong, then myfriend is the first female CR member to ask me to lunch (good thing I said no, then) 🙂
Don’t bother quoting from that “extreme” text called The Shulchon Aruch iit may offend some peoples “sensitivities.”
I don’t think the text is extreme… I think he’s interpreting it extremely if one is to take it to mean that you must stay away from your own daughter.
I don’t believe the mechaber meant that.
The Wolf
myfriend:
If you are that worried, then it doesn’t matter what you are. People can hit on you either way.
It is Nogaigh to your question, only because I don’t see a guy who has learned in yeshiva asking such a question.
And if you ask me why not, I will answer you to please ask your husband.
Who said anything about “you must stay away from your own daughter”? That is “interpreting it [the comment] extremely”. The point was about a man dancing with a daughter or sister in middle of a sea of (dressed to kill!) women.
(Just waiting for someone to accuse me of “MO” “heresies” or not having a “true commitment” to Torah, halacha and/or yahadus for suggesting that a person does not have to stay away from his own daughter.)
The Wolf
Aries: And there is nothing assur for a family to dance together.
In a public setting such as a wedding, it’s absolutely wrong! You are mach’shil the other people who are watching. Otherwise, why couldn’t a couple take ballroom dancing?
Who said anything about “you must stay away from your own daughter”? That is “interpreting it [the comment] extremely”. The point was about a man dancing with a daughter or sister in middle of a sea of (dressed to kill!) women.
My apologies then — I clearly misinterpreted what you said. You were talking about a man and his daughter and I did not realize that you were focusing on the “in the midst…” portion. I thought you were focusing on the man and his daughter.
The Wolf
Stop everybody- it’s ok to dance with your daughter.
The point is dancing in public- if the father or other men see other woman dancing then that’s a BIG problem and NOBODY can get a heter for that.
aries2756
Your post is a little naive. There are plenty of guys itching to get on the ladies side and dancing with their sister is the perfect opportunity. I’m not saying this about every guy who does it- But there are plenty of these out there
As someone else pointed out- the whole family can dance together in a private room. There is no need to put on a whole show.
whatrutalkingabt, No I think you are being naive as are the rest of you always looking for something to kvetch about and point your fingers at. Dancing with your daughter at her wedding is a beautiful thing and for brothers as well. And anyone looking for something licentious about it is just a big yenta always looking for the bad in things instead of the good. Women do not surround the father and daughter, they open up the circle and they don’t stay long it is only for a few minutes usually very close to the mechitza. Everyone has their own minhag and in many cases it is not planned out just spontaneous. And in many cases the choson comes over to dance with his grandmother and mother. That is also a beautiful thing but YOU will all find something wrong with it. Go ahead, in my book and in many others in is a great honor to the grandmother and the mother.
Go pull out your seforim and look it up. It doesn’t hold a candle to the worst offenses like child molestation and abuse. So until you frumer than frum name names and lock them up those Rebbeshe culprits who will stand on top of a mountain and yell gevalt that a father dances with a daughter at her wedding stop picking on the innocent and beautiful family minhagim.
Aries- whether dancing with a daughter is right or not, how do you explain the fact that the father(and the other men who go in with him) see the whole ladies section dancing?
I’m just wondering how people justify that?
smartcookie, they don’t because as soon as the father comes in the ladies stop dancing and usually start crying and snap pictures. So again, before everyone starts looking for the BAD, maybe start to dan l’kaf zchus.
helpful, there is no aveira for a brother/father to dance w/ the kallah. learn a little halacha before you comment.
yechez89:
Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 152-13 says its assur for a brother.
And its assur for anyone in a mixed environment.
Now go learn some halacha before responding.
Helpful, you know what…. never mind. It is very clear you are simply flaming us, and people are rising to the bait. You are laughing your head off at how many people thought you were actually serious.
Not to wade into this contentious debate, but Rambam Hilchos Isurei Biah 21:6 and Shulchan Aruch E.H. 21:7 [and O.C. 73:4] (as cited by Igros Moshe Y.D. 2:137) says for a brother to touch a sister over age 11, or for a sister to touch a brother over age 12 is a “most deplorable, a prohibited (type of) action, and an act of foolishness”.
As far as a daughter is concerned, Igros Moshe E.H. 1:60 and E.H. 4:63 maintains that it is proper to be stringent and not kiss a married daughter or granddaughter. (That is kissing, not just touching.) Other poskim, however, do not mention this stringency and this seems to be the prevailing custom.
All of the above, is even in private. If done in public, there are additional issues.
Why don’t we just clear this up the way those who consider themselves FRUMEST of the FRUM on this thread would like it to be known. THOSE who consider themselves FRUMER than others would never consider allowing Fathers and brothers to dance with the Kallah, c”v, that doesn’t happen unless of course it is a mitzvah tanz and the kallah goes to the men’s side and dances (with a gartel) with a dozen or two or three other strange men as well. At that time, there are dozens of well dressed (dressed to kill women and girls sitting on the men’s side as well) Those who THEY consider their MO brethren and who THEY consider a few madreigah’s beneath them will not consider anything wrong with it and might even consider same gender marriages because we are all menuvals and don’t understand or follow Torah. WE also don’t understand that the joy of a father and brother their only reason for going to the girl’s side is to fill their devious minds and hearts with views of gorgeous and dressed to kill women and girls and of course their minds and hearts are not to be mesameach THEIR kallah. It would never occur to these Frumer than Frum that one can also see these beautiful in the hallway or in the front lobby. But no the brothers have to rush over to the Kallah’s side to get an eyefull.
YOU bring me such pain with all this garbage and holier than thou attitude I can only imagine the pain Hashem has from this. You lose track of how far you let this go and how nasty you get, we all get. Yes I get in it to because I keep saying stop judging what others are doing, they have their own Rav they can ask and that can guide them. Stop looking to point fingers at others, where does it get us? We start the mud slinging at each other and it becomes another foolish and disgusting blog. This is not a halachik blog. It is a chat room, a coffee room for people to help each other not hurt each other, but it changed and it is not a very nice place to be anymore.
So now all you holier than thou who think YOU control this room will tell ME to leave. Well I can tell you the same. And I leave it to the moderators to decide how to get the CR room back to the way it is supposed to be, before all the mud slinging began.
People – please don’t bother aries with halachic references or halachic stuff. It is of no interest to her. Feelings take precedence. If it makes one feel good, it is okay with her, even if against halacha.
Aries, if you’re confident in what you’re doing, then don’t take everybody’s judgmental advice to heart. Just brush it off and smile.
Usually, when a person is 100% sure about what they’re doing is right, they really don’t care what people say.
Not everyone’s rov agrees with another. Not everyone’s rov believes that a father touching, hugging, or kissing his son or daughter out of parental love, in an appropriate way, is assur. Those who do feel that way, should not touch their female immediate family members, and should refrain from commenting negatively about those who do not share their opinion.
Part of what is SO wrong and alienating within Klal Yisroel today, is that dark and unyielding attitude held by people who are practicing a brand of frumkeit that removes joy from the Torah. By putting one geder after another on halachos that were perfectly excellent when Hashem gave them to us, they in effect are saying the Torah needs to be “improved.” Well, improve away. I wish my father Z”L were still alive so I could kiss him again. And I know my brothers feel the same about our mother O”H.
For the WIY and Myfriend, the Gemora says that a shidduchable-age girl should mekashet herself so that the boys will want to marry her. SJSinNYC is right this time. Look in Ta’anis 13B and the relevant Shulchan Aruch, and the sugya of mitsvos ha’av al ha’ben at the end of perek kama of Kidushin
oomis – What Shulchan Aruch says (see above) is not a “geder” or opinion. It is Shulchan Aruch (and Rambam too).
People – please don’t bother aries with halachic references or halachic stuff. It is of no interest to her. Feelings take precedence. If it makes one feel good, it is okay with her, even if against halacha.
Now you went to far. Apparently you’ve decided your anonymous opinion on a forum (which I highly doubt anyone will take a psak Halacha from) is more important than derech eretz. If I were you, I would ask mechila. Now.
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Mods, I don’t see this thread going anywhere good. I, for one, think its time to close it.
Agreed
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