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I had my head handed to me
That must have hurt. I hope you had a good neurosurgeon to put things back together again.
The Wolf
Mod80, I have a lot of respect for Daas Torah. I don’t have a lot of respect when people throw around things and just say no. I may disagree with logic of some Daas Torah (usually based on my Daas Torah), but that’s different IMO.
If we are really worried about teenagers viewing each other inappropriately, maybe they shouldn’t be invited to the wedding? In all seriousness here…because just by attending, in MOST places, they may see each other. Except in halls where they are basically seperate buildings.
Well said. Kallah comes in and so do all her “best” friends. Basically 1/2 the ladies section ends upby the boys and now whoever dances in front of the Kallah (the single guys) also try to impress the single girls who are watching. What a mess lol.
Same thing happens in some well-known yeshivos every Simchas Torah (minus the kallah). The RY doesn’t seem to mind, or he’d put an end to it.
If we are really worried about teenagers viewing each other inappropriately, maybe they shouldn’t be invited to the wedding? In all seriousness here…because just by attending, in MOST places, they may see each other.
What a novel way to cut down on the cost of weddings! Of course, it would also cause the level of liveliness at a wedding to revert back to the old fashioned German wedding levels 🙂
Is fun allowed?
Same thing happens in some well-known yeshivos every Simchas Torah (minus the kallah). The RY doesn’t seem to mind, or he’d put an end to it.
But the boys don’t see the girls (I don’t think).
What a novel way to cut down on the cost of weddings!
Doesn’t save anything. They show up for the second dance and eat from everyone who has already left 🙁 I really DON’T understand why they show up, if not to let out steam (which has nothing to do with the wedding).
Is fun allowed?
No. Eat, sleep & learn.
NO FUN
SJS
Your definition of fun is not very Torahdig to say the least.
But GAW, I’m not a man. That’s what my husband has to do. All I have to do is sit back and revel in the schar from his learning!
My father danced with me by my wedding (wasn’t expecting it though lol), and it was perfectly fine. brothers and all other men all stayed on other side as chosson was there. And all the women stopped dancing. same thing happened with other weddings ive been at. would i encourage it? no, who knows if it will eventually get out of hand, but once it does its usually ok
WIY, what’s my definition of fun?
WIY
Member
SJS
Your definition of fun is not very Torahdig to say the least.
Neither is the attitude you seem to throw out at anyone a touch less frum than you.
You’re on a public forum, it might be time to take a step back.
kapusta
I think Im entitled to have something to say to someone who thinks boys and girls mingling and looking at each other is fun and should be allowed and the idea that it is assur brings her to say “Is fun allowed?”
Sorry if it offends you or anyone else that I stand up for whats right.
WIY: Keep strong in your position. Taking a Torah position is often unpopular.
The “Is fun allowed” was a question to Squeak who said we were reverting back to germanic wedding styles. As I’m half German and understand the “no sense of humor” thing, it made me laugh and was a natural question.
Again, where did I define my version of fun?
I’m both a father and a brother and I was mafrish challah this week. Of course I didn’t dance with it, but I don’t see the issue with that and… what’s that? Kallah? not Challah? Oh, I see. Well, that changes everything, doesn’t it?
Never mind.
The Wolf
Mitzvah Tantz is not made for the KALLAH to dance. Don’t mention something if u don’t know what it’s all about. The men (individually) dance b4 the Kallah, not WITH the Kallah.
Besides that only immediate family stays for Mitzvah Tantz.
And I’ve watched Kallahs going into the men’s section to dance there. Doesn’t seem right to me that so many men watch the kallah when she’s dressed so beautifully on her wedding night.
I think were all much much safer staying on our side of the mechitzah.
Looking at a girl is ossur? Everything in moderation man. That is why we put up mechitzas so that people don’t spend majority of time looking and intermingling with each other. It is a geder. Maybe we should pluck our eyes out so we don’t look at each other. Going to the other extreme is what other religions do, Yiddishkeit is so beautiful because we live heimishe lives in this world.
I think were all much much safer
I think we’d be much safer if the women didn’t attend the wedding at all. Why do women need to be there? The kallah can send a shliach to the hall to accept her kiddushin. The nesuin will happen when she goes home to her chassan at the end of the day.
So, you’ll just have the men in one hall and the women across town in the other hall, and then no one has to see anyone of the opposite gender — including the chosson and kallah. That’s the safest method.
The Wolf
(Of course, I wouldn’t want a wedding like that, but if safety [vis-a-vis boys and girls comingling] is the main criteria, then perhaps we should adopt this model.)
Looking at a girl is ossur? Everything in moderation man… It is a geder. Maybe we should pluck our eyes out so we don’t look at each other.
Vlo Sasuru Acharei Lvavchem Veacharei Eineichem. It’s a pasuk in the Torah, not a geder.
Wolfish- that was the funniest post i read today:) Thanks for the laugh!!!!
“I’m both a father and a brother and I was mafrish challah this week”
Just curious, Wolf; did you wear a hat /jacket / gartel during this momentus occasion? I’m very happy for you either way; I’m just curious.
And while I have not yet done the challah, I did have a chance to bentch lecht, so I know how special a moment that can be (I wore the H/J/G, in case you’re wondering)
The “Is fun allowed” was a question to Squeak who said we were reverting back to germanic wedding styles. As I’m half German and understand the “no sense of humor” thing, it made me laugh and was a natural question.
Ahhh, didn’t realize I was supposed to field it. Of course fun is allowed. Germans just define fun differently.
An example of fun is when you tap along to music (without ruffling your bowtie). Fun is allowed.
Correct me if I’m wrong, you are better qualified to speak from this viewpoint than I (you are half-German)
and whats all this fuss about steven writes?
who is this steven anyway?
and who cares what he writes?
steven wright
oh, nevermind
Wolfish Music?
What’s that all about?
Sounds like nothing but howling to me.
What’s that you say?
Wolfish Musings?
Oh, never mind
Oh well, I posted the siman in Kitzur earlier but i guess nobody looked at it. After all, if you really do feel taht looking at women is OK, then I guess the Kitzur is irrelevant. And Mod, Tu B’av is not done anymore and you know that. Whatever the reason was back then it was. It isn’t anymore. I’ll be hit on the head for this but who cares. We have a pejorative term when someone gets engaged NOT through a shadchan. Who was the shadchan? Choshku (general translation means desire). Basically it means they met somehow and decided this is it. Of course many will say hey so whats wrong with that? nothing.
helpful, there is taking the torah position and then there is taking the position that tries to distort what the torah says.
whats all this fuss about screech?
i mean sure he was funny but that was years ago
hes probably an old man already, or killed in viet nam
squeak.
oh, nevermind
Just curious, Wolf; did you wear a hat /jacket / gartel during this momentus occasion? I’m very happy for you either way; I’m just curious.
I don’t normally wear a hat, jacket or gartel, so the answer is no. Even so, somehow I doubt that, even if I did wear them regularly, I would have been wearing them while kneading the dough (which is what I was doing right before I was mafrish).
And while I have not yet done the challah, I did have a chance to bentch lecht, so I know how special a moment that can be (I wore the H/J/G, in case you’re wondering)
I got to bentch licht twice.
The Wolf
Phew, saved by the bell
WIY:
I am not offended personally but I absolutely hate the (general) attitude toward people who are not the frumest of the frum. And for the people who are looking at the general attitude and saying “oh, well I can never do that anyway, and I’m already considered non-frum according to some people, so why bother with anything”, that offends me. I understand where you’re coming from and I support you in what you’re doing I just wish you would make it a little less stinging in some of your comments on the forum. Constructive, not destructive.
myfriend, I was not c’v taking an anti-Torah position. As you may have noticed, I didn’t comment on the issue being discussed. Just on the general very condescending attitude. Bring some proof that thats the way to make people better Jews.
whose modernater?
Sounds like a modern guy who likes to eat and eat
Oh moderator- forget it!
Kapusta: Are you equally offended when someone posts on the forum that it is okay to do something that is forbidden? And when a poster gets upset that they are told something they like to do is forbidden?
It is Ossur for any Male (Married/Unmarried) to LOOK at an ‘Osani Kirtzoinoi’ for whatever reason at all.
The ONLY exception is ones Wife, Mother, Daughter & Sister.
If one is dating a girl to see if she is suitable for him, he may glance at her to ensure there is nothing about her appearance that he dislikes in any way.
As it says in Kiddushin “it is forbidden for a Man to marry a Woman until he has seen her in case he sees something despicable in her and he will despise her, transgressing: “One must love ones friend like ones self”.
There is no Heter for a Guy to check out (excuse my language) every girl he comes across in the off chance that she may be the one…
boy, I needed a good laugh at the end the day and I got it reading some of the posts…thanks, wolf ! (and others)
I am surprised, though, at the words of prof1 who, from another thread i learned went to Torah Vodaath. He says that ‘tu be’av’ was only done “back then” but the “reason” for it is not here today anymore. Suppose I said that about, oh, lighting a fire on shabbos- ‘oh, back then, when it was so difficult you could not but today it is only the flip of a switch” and we don’t need that anymore. THAT woulsd bring everyone down on me as an apikorus. why is the assertion that what happened in the days of the gemoro (tu be’av AND YOM KIPPUR,btw)something that was ‘done back then’ but not today, different? it is the height of chutzpah to assert that minhagim of the gemoro’s time are not relevant anymore.
the Minhag was mvatel by the Chochomin when the generations were no loger fit for it.
Is A Yungerman, WIY?
As I’ve read these posts, I’ve come across a few times the phrase “v’lo sosuru achrei levavchem vachrei eineichem” it’s meaning is not exactly how it’s translated. I have read somewhere (can’t remember at this time) that one goes on what you see and the other goes on what you feel. Only one of them is regarding what pepole think they both stand for, and the other is for Avoidah zarrah.
SJS
The “Is fun allowed” was a question to Squeak who said we were reverting back to germanic wedding styles. As I’m half German and understand the “no sense of humor” thing, it made me laugh and was a natural question.
Again, where did I define my version of fun?
Sorry it got lost in translation. I thought you were talking to me and saying that teen boys and girls should look at each other because its fun.
“Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 152-13”
The Kitzur is known to very stringent in such matters.
Please bring a more middle of the road source.
Squeak, tapping your foot to music is a little risque. I would stick with humming the tune in your head.
“I’m attacking the notion that a man should never, ever lay eyes on a woman in any way shape or form. “
for all those who believe its ok to look at women (not immediate family) just take a look in Mesilas Yesharim, Orchas Tzaddikim… and im sure theres many Seforim on halach that go through it. It’s not from me. These gedolai olam said it.
about the father dancing with his daughter at her wedding, i don’t think you can literally assur it. If someone really wants to do it , why can’t they do it privately in a separate room?
So again it is ridiculous to say a father can’t dance with his daughter. If you look at the Rebbe mitzva tanzen you will see that even the biggest Rebbeim don’t even use a gartel when dancing with their daughters.
And to say that when a father and brothers come to the girls side excitedly to dance with the Kallash they have in mind to look at the other girls is the most outrageous and ridiculous comment in this whole entire thread. Really it not only lacks maturity but seichel. Have you ever been in that position that your own sister got married that you can even remember being so excited for your sister? You are not a parent so you can’t imagine what it feels like for a father to dance with his daughter, or a daughter to dance with her father or her wedding day. And there is nothing assur for a family to dance together which doesn’t ALWAYS happen. In addition, the mechitza does NOT come down, and the other people don’t mingle and go back and forth.
Furthermore, people have different minhagim, and if it is NOT your minhag for the Kallah to go to the chosson’s side or vice a versa you should stop commenting on it, you should just stand behind your own opinions and just leave. You shouldn’t suffer because of other’s minhagim but YOU shouldn’t put them down for it either. I certainly don’t participate in a mixed dancing affair and If it bothers me, I will leave. My job is to be misameach chosson v’kallah and not criticize what others are doing.
Furthermore in my humble opinion, I find a mitzvah tanz where the Kallah dances with ten or even more men that she does not know or have any connections to extremely not tzniusdik even with a gartel. The nicest mitzvah tanz is when only the chosson and kallah’s fathers, uncles and brothers dance with the kallah aside from the chosson himself. I always feel sorry for a kallah when she stands there so awkwardly while both strange men and women stare at her looking at her reaction while these strange men prance around the room. Honestly how tzniusdik is that? And that can go on for hours.
wolf: thank you for bringing humor and lightness to the coffee room while still keeping it real and to the point. after spending a few hours in the hospital trying to get my son’s hospital records to give to the next specialist, i needed to laugh. thank you! tizku l’mitzvos. oh, and fathers/brothers dancing with the kallah? whatever floats your boat…or twirls your curls!
myfriend, did I ever allow something forbidden? All I said was to get rid of the disgusting attitude that usually goes along with it. I am honestly embarrassed for people (both in the CR and not in the CR) who try to shove Yiddishkeit down everyones throat. This is not the way Kiruv organizations have become so (B”H!) successful. It gives me, who went to BY and grew up in a very frum house, a bad taste for Yiddishkeit. How much more so someone who was not able to have a frum upbringing.
It’s assur (as cited earlier.)
Nothing else to discuss.
Aries- why are u even comparing rebbes dancing with their daughter?
Dancing into the womans section, WHILE WOMAN ARE DANCING, to dance with a daughter is very different when the Rebbe dances with his daughter at a mitzvah tantz. There the ladies are sitting and only immediate family is there.
helpful, it’s not assur as long as it’s done in a tzniusdig manner. by saying it’s assur just displays ignorance, and mod please tell me which “chachomim” were supposedly mivatel this.
“Checking out the girls” cuz maybe one is the RIGHT one means that the whole marriage is based on external qualities instead of what our ancestors have known is the important issue – the internal qualities/neshama of the person you’re marrying. What happens when the girl gains weight during/after pregnancy??? She won’t be the same girl he saw “dressed to kill” at the chassanah when he decided to check her out. Now he’ll probably decide to check out of the marriage himself. Sad to say, but this is probably a strong reason for the growing divorce rate in our circles.
yechezkel: Read the thread. Someone already cited the halacha that it is assur for a brother (or anyone other than the father or chosson).
And if the women are dancing when the father is there, that is assur for everyone. And various posters have indicated that in the vast majority of cases, the entire women’s section does NOT suddenly stop dancing if the father, brothers, uncles, etc. suddenly come into the women’s side of the mechitza to dance with the bride.
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