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A bachur who when in yeshiva is accustomed to hang his tzitzis low and to wear payos in front of his ears, as an expression of Jewish pride and a reminder of his identity and the need to conform his behavior to his appearance, what should he do when going into the workforce?
Also -if you did something bad and now you are getting called in by your non-Jewish supervisor to be reprimanded, is it a good idea to show up with your tzitzis by your ankles, or should one avoid doing so to minimize the chillul Hashem? (The more religious you look, the bigger a Chillul Hashem it is).
mik5,
It seems like you already have some opinions on this: https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-to-remain-a-ben-torah-after-leaving-kollel/#post-1329039
As far as how to dress when being reprimanded, I think one should dress just as he does every day at the office. Accept responsibility and apologize where appropriate, and be prepared with a plan of action to remedy the situation and prevent future occurrences.
Why should a Yid be embarrassed to unambiguously dress like a Yid in fully Yiddishe clothing and form of dress and appearance when today every goy in some weird, unusual, luny, foreign dress, hairdo, and form of appearance is accepted in America’s largest corporations as a matter of cultural acceptance.
Bravo Joseph
Just work with and for Yidden.
Peyos and tzisis are not expressions of “Jewish pride.” They are fulfillments of mitzvos. Period. And “Jewish pride” is an egregious, misplaced emotion. Tznius is about humility, not “Jewish pride.”
If someone already dresses in a certain way and is reprimanded for some ethical violation, as opposed to a goof, he is committing a chillul Hhashem. Changing his dress for being called on the carpet will just be interpreted cynically. If he does not think that he is up to it he should not dress that way .
As for working only with and for YEHUDIM (let the creole German rest in peace), make aliya.
Avi K,
“As for working only with and for YEHUDIM (let the creole German rest in peace), make aliya.”
Because there certainly is no prejudice against people wearing Chareidi garb in the Israeli workforce…
Exhibit A: You can’t even tolerate a single word of Yiddish. Doesn’t bode well for cultural acceptance.
huju,
“Peyos and tzisis are not expressions of “Jewish pride.” They are fulfillments of mitzvos. Period. And “Jewish pride” is an egregious, misplaced emotion. Tznius is about humility, not “Jewish pride.””
The OP is not talking about just having peyos and tzitzis, but the very public display of them and going beyond the minimum (e.g., long tzitzis, long curly peyos) in a place where that is not common. Also, what do peyos and tzitzis have to do with tznius?
There is a difference between remembering who you are and reminding everyone else of your identity
“The OP is not talking about just having peyos and tzitzis, but the very public display of them and going beyond the minimum (e.g., long tzitzis, long curly peyos) in a place where that is not common.”
What to one person’s shitta is beyond the minimum, to another person’s shitta isn’t even the bare minimum.
Joseph,
“What to one person’s shitta is beyond the minimum, to another person’s shitta isn’t even the bare minimum.”
Understood. Given that the OP asked whether or not to wear the peyos out front or long tzitzis in a work situation, and also refers to these hiddurim as expressions of pride (rather than, say, obligation), I don’t think this is the case here.
Avram,
1.”Yid” in English is a pejorative. Archie Bunker used it.
2. Someone who wears peyot and tzitziot outside as an expression of pride rather than for halachic reasons has a problem. He has turned them into fashion symbols, like wearing a magen David. Flaunting it is not tzenua. That is not the same as the English word “modest”. It comes from a root that means “hidden”.Avi K,
“1.”Yid” in English is a pejorative. Archie Bunker used it.”
So is “Jew”. And so what? This is not the real reason you have a problem with people using Yiddish; it’s just a deflection.
“2. Someone who wears peyot and tzitziot outside as an expression of pride rather than for halachic reasons has a problem.”
I disagree. Pride is not the best reason to wear peyos and tzitzis out, but if someone is going to feel proud of something, why not be proud of his Yiddishkeit?
“He has turned them into fashion symbols, like wearing a magen David.”
No, he is simply a person using dress as self-identification. Hashem requires us to wear tzitzis and to not destroy the corners of our beards. These are halachic parameters on our fashion, and there’s nothing wrong with using them to self-identify as a Jew, or even more specifically, a chassid, Yeshivish, etc. Don’t kid yourself, a kippa sruga is no less a fashion statement than long peyos, especially inside the Jewish world.
To wear tzitzis and peyos is never a chillel HaShem, if anything its a Kidish HaShem, even around people that are not used to seeing such things. A kidish HaShem means to do what HaShem wants, and HaShem said to wear tzitzis and peyos, and if your minhag is to wear long tzitzis and payis, than that too is a Kidish HaShem!! And this should bring us to Jewish pride, by doing whats write, even if its awkward or hard, doing it SHOULD make us proud!!!
Avram,
1. In fact, in many countries the Jewish community is called the Israelite community. In any case, the connotation of a word differs according to the language. In Polish “zhid” is a regular word whereas in Russian it is a pejorative. Similarly, if one were speaking in Yiddish “shvartze” would not be pejorative but if he is speaking in English it is.
2. Wearing tzitziot outside for pride is like putting up a mezzuza as an amulet. Rambam says about the latter that one loses the mitzva.
3. A kippa seruga is not a fashion statement but a statement regarding one’s hashkafa.Beee,
1.It is a chillul Hashem if the person is not on such a high level as people judge him more stringently. In a pace where that is not the custom it is also haughtiness.
1. Actually, the poskim did away with some customs, such as covering one’s face during the shiva, because others made fun of Jews.Wearing tzitziot outside for pride is like putting up a mezzuza as an amulet.
Putting up a mezuza as an amulet is an ulterior motive for performing the
mitzva (and that also sounds like it might fall into the debate of whether
a mitzva requires specific intention to fulfill a mitzva).
Wearing your tzitzis out to show that you are proud of doing the mitzva
is not a reason that replaces the reason that it’s a mitzva (and you also
intend to fulfill the mitzva by wearing tzitizis).When one goes outside the Shtetle wearing Yiddishe garb it can be probablamatic because someone could act in such a way that people associate certain negative behaviors with all jews and you can create a Chilul hashem
I don’t mean to highjack the thread here but perhaps the question here is should you dress at a level above yourself in hopes to reach greater heights or should you dress in accordance with you current level.
Take a different example, take davaning. If you are in a public place and you have to daven before you miss the zman, than yes, daven. Its advised that you go to a corner and daven, not just start davaning in middle a everything, but to go to a telephone booth to daven, cuz you dont want to make a ‘chilul HaShem’ than i think that shows that the person is embarrassed. I think its the same with the tzitzis, amusing that you are on that level, and its something that you always do, than it would seem that you are embarrassed if you tuck them in, in no way is it a chillul HaShem!
If you’re going to wear long peyos and your tzitzis out, then your ethical behavior, bein adam l’chaveiro, and personal deportment better match your appearance. Cutting corners, pulling shtick, pushing to the head of the line, and similar behavior when you are so obviously identifiable as a Jew is plain hillul haShem. In my mixed neighborhood I am very obviously a Jew, and I feel that I must try to maintain a standard of behaviour that would meet the approval of Shimon ben Shetach (or at least of my Rav). And forget the “pride” business. Ga’avah isn’t a good midah. What you should aim for are respect and dignity and the trait of showing them also for other people, Jew and non-Jew.
This isn’t idealism, it’s enlightened self-interest, because the person who gets a negative impression of you today will act on it tomorrow when they’re interacting with me or any other Jew.
And better believe that your boss – and everyone else in the company – knows how you usually dress, so don’t worry about “dressing down.” If anything, it adds to the negative impression.
ZD: So act appropriately.
midwest
whats this ga’avah thing have to do with Jewish pride? Firstly, every Midah has good parts to it and bad part, the good part of the midah of ga’avah would to be proud that your a jew!! Its the opposite of what your saying, it is a way to expressing ga’ava in a positive way!Also, our goal is not to blend into the goyim and try to dress to make them happy. Like in Mitzrayim it was a praise on the yidden that they did not change there close. We also know that before ww2, the Germans were looked up to and the yidden tried to blend in to them, dress like them. Did that save the yidden in the war?
Beee:
I still don’t get this “Jewish pride” bit. We should be grateful that HKBH made us be born Jews, and we should try our best to live up to the standards the Torah sets for us. People worry about “pride” when they don’t really feel sure of themselves. Obviously a person who r”l feels embarrassed about being a Jew has personal problems, but going around with one’s nose in the air because of HKBH’s kindness to you isn’t the way to go either.
We shouldn’t imitate non-Jews or try to dress like them, and that includes, for example, listening to non-jewish talk radio and quoting its personalities as if they’re some sort of posek.
Act with dignity and consideration and the world will respect you, and you won’t have to worry about defending your “pride.”
i guess its more of an inner pride. Your right that its not nice to walk around with your nose in the air, but i still think inside there should be pride. But this still should not make one change there dress code…
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