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so i guess teh little obedient girl is gonna have to cont to be patient…….
Oh well, where’s Rabbi Pliskin’s books when you need them…
mosherose,
My esrog minhag is to avoid being abrasive while holding it. For a hidur, I try not to extrapolate from one comment an entire life philosophy at the same time that I inspect the lulav. I shtam from moiredeke yichus, and hold my minhagim azoi so dear.
The Wolf’s minhag avoseinu is to play it safe and to be a mench. What’s yours mosherose?
bein_hasdorim: was that the going rate on Ave J?!
bein_hasdorim: sounds kinda expensive to me,(or a rip off)! but hey idk!
bein_hasdorim – Supply and demand may be the reason for those prices, if they ran out of hadassim in your area.
I always buy extra aravos and hadassim when I get my esrog since it is a hidur mitzva to refresh and replace them on chol hamoed; and as happened in shul this morning that someone needed them and I was happy to provide.
The gartel is a natural occurence, the string theory is a myth. When the esrog starts to bud, there is a ring of fibrils surrounding the developing fruit that exerts a certain amount of pressure on the midsection of the fruit. At a certain point, this ring falls away to allow the fruit to continue to develop. Sometimes, the ring does not fall off so quickly, and the pressure indents the fruit in the middle, causing the belt tightening effect we call the gartel. Sometimes it’s 360 degrees around and sometimes not. It is an anatomical quirk and is not related to the kashrus of the esrog. Every tree will have a few like that, some more, some less, it’s pretty random.
Some people like it, some don’t, the hiddur of it is dependent on what your ancestors liked or didn’t. To each his own.
I have a number of esrog trees in my yard, some form esrogim w/ a gartel and some w/o. Neither have any “ring of fibrils surrounding the developing fruit”. I have heard that the gartel is caused by a viral infection, and can confirm that when cutting open a gartel esrog the seeds are withered. In any event both are kosher and it is primarily an issue of preference.
There was a picture of a Roman fruit market where a vendor was selling esrogim. I believe the price was $5 for one. Even putting in some hashgacho markup, I’m not sure how esrogim can be that expensive.
BUT, I think we might be our own worst enemy. If somebody were to sell an esrog for $25, many wouldn’t buy it, “obviously there’s something wrong with it.” So they sell it for more.
truthsharer” Come to Ave.J erev Succos where you can buy complete and decent esrog sets for as little as $10.
It has occured, that by time Erev Succos rolled around there was a shortage and sets were unavailable.
I apologize for the incompleteness of the explanation of the gartel in the esrog. Here is a fuller version.
At the end of the flowering stage, the petals fall off, leaving the very beginning of the fruit surrounded by a relatively tightly closed ring of filaments with anthers at the top of the filamnts. As the fruit expands, this ring of filaments breaks apart and the filaments and anthers spread out to allow more room for the fruit to grow. Occasionally, more in certain esrog varieties and less in others, the filament ring does not break apart so easily, and for a while will pinch the fruit, forming the gartel. Interestingly, the esrog is unique among citrus fruits in that the final shape of the esrog is unidentifiable at the beginning of the growing stage, whereas in all the others, the shape is easily recognized from early on.
It was once proposed that the gartel is caused by a virus, but the proponent of that theory has since retracted his opinion.
This is not my field of expertise. The source of the information above is a talmid chochom and yarei shamayim who makes his living as a full professor and Chief of Agricultural Research at the Israel Agricultural Institute.
onlyemes: thank you for your educated post, however from my extensive personal experience I must disagree. My Yanover esrogim nearly all have gartelach at maturity, but the stamen and anthers all fall off before the fruit is large enough to come in contact with them. In fact, if a stamen is retained, I find it causes bletlach near the bottom of the esrog. I also point out, as you hinted at, that the immature esrogim never have a gartel and it only develops later. If caused by pinching at an early stage, it would be hard to imagine there is no noticeable effect until later.
PM: Your extensive personal experience makes me think that my source’s explanation is inadequate. It is possible that the virus theory is correct, or some combination, or maybe some other factor that hasn’t been considered. I might add that my source noted that the gartel issue does not lie at the top of the priority list for researchers (surprise). Maybe you could research it, come to a conclusion, and we will then call the phenomenon “PM’s Gartel”. Good luck and chag sameach.
Onlyemes:
The gartel is a natural occurence, the string theory is a myth.
String theory is a myth? After all the effort I spent wrapping my head around string theory? Then again I never fully comprehended more than 4 dimensions anyway…
When it comes to buying an esrog, what is important to people here in terms of the way it looks? Obviously it must be kosher, but the hiddur is in the look of the esrog.
I like mine to have a nice shape, and not to be too yellow. I find that if I get one that’s already bright yellow, by the time I get to Chol Hamoed, it’s starting to turn brown already. I prefer the pale yellow/light green shade, as it stays through the whole Yom Tov. After I have those two things, I’ll look to see how clean the esrog is.
This year, I was debating between 2 esrogim. One was 100% clean – no scratches, no marks, nothing. Completely clean. The problem was, I didn’t like the shape too much. The other esrog had the perfect shape, but had 2 small scratches near the bottom. The top half was completely clean. I went with the 2nd one, as the shape is more important to me.
5 Things To Look For When Buying An Esrog
1. The Top Section is Crucial – Always start checking from the top, the side of the pitom or where the pitom would be. A black dot on the top that is easily noticeable renders the esrog pasul. A white dot would also invalidate the esrog, but most light colored dots are beige, not white. This is the most common problem to look for.
2. The Whole Body – Next, the entire esrog should be examined for holes or scratches that would make the esrog chaser, lacking. Also, numerous discolorations that can be seen from all sides while examining the esrog render it menumar, spotted, and pasul even if they are all only on the bottom of the esrog. Furthermore, brown spots may indicate a recent bruise which is likely to darken and turn black over the course of the next few days.
3. The Stem – The stem should be checked to make sure it is firmly attached and not likely to fall off.
4. The Pitom – The pitom should also be inspected to insure that it is free of blemishes and that it is strong enough to last the week of Sukkos. If the esrog does not have a pitom, the place where the pitom would usually be should be checked to verify that it did not break off, but rather grew without a pitom.
5. Overall Beauty – Of course it adds to the beauty of the esrog if it is a good size and has an attractive shape and color, but these are of secondary concern.
copied from Revach.net
more from Revach:
6 Things To Look For When Buying A Lulav
1. Closed – The primary issue is to insure that the middle leaf is completely closed all the way to its tip. Preferably, one should not even be able to see two separate points.
2. Not Dry – Also, it is important that the lulav has not dried out and shriveled, but a little brown on the tip is natural.
3. Complete – Furthermore, care must be taken that the tip has not broken off.
4. Covered In Brown – Some prefer to take a lulav where the tip is covered with brown korah insuring its complete closure, while others avoid such a lulav out of concern for what lies underneath.
5. Knepel – Also, some prefer a knepel, where the tip of the leaf is folded over, as such a lulav will almost never split. However, some poskim invalidate such a lulav because of its bent state. If the tip bends slightly, but not so much that the tip points back to the bottom of the lulav, is not a problem and has all the advantages.
6. Beauty – A long, thick, straight and green lulav is ideal, but not of primary importance.
and:
5 Things To Look For When Buying Hadassim
1. Mishulash – The main concern with hadassim is that the leaves should be in sets of three. This requires examining that all the sets of three leaves in the required length grow parallel to each other.
2. Falling Leaves – Furthermore, one must check that no leaves have fallen off.
3. Dry or Broken – Also with hadassim, they must not be dried out or broken at the tip of the branch.
4. Size – Preferably, the leaves should each be smaller than a thumbnail
5. Branch Exposure – Preferably each set of leaves should be close enough to the next set that none of the wood of the branch is exposed.
finally:
4 Things To Look For When Buying Aravos
1. Edges – The aravos should have long leaves that are either completely smooth or only have very fine serrations.
2. Lavluv – One should check that the tip of the branch has not broken, and for this reason many look for aravos with lavluv, the bunch of immature, unopened leaves at the tip.
3. Dried/Shriveled – Also, the aravos should not be dry or shriveled and no leaves should have fallen off, and since this is a very common problem, it is preferable to replace the aravos frequently over the course on Sukkos.
4. Grey Goods – Finally, since aravos are commonly grown in private yards and on public property, it is especially important to insure that the person you are buying from really has permission to cut and sell them. All of the arba minim are pasul if stolen.
As I always say to my kids… “I’d rather have a pitomless bottom than the bottomless pit.” Yeah, I know it’s the top, but it does get a silly laugh.
I hope this information was helpful
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