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HIE- because its not questionable. If my rav says its allowed then I’m allowed- PERIOD.
NO, NOT TRUE. YOUR rov is VERY MAKIL
Hashem is Everywhere: You can go out of the major cites and still have 32 foot wide roads. There is another issue of mabui mefulash. I asked the following to a Rov out in the Rockaways: If Flatbush avenue connects to Beach Channel Drive, which connects to Sheridan Blvd which connects to Peninsula Blvd, which connects to Sunrise Highway out to Montauk, can the eruv include any such roads? The answer: “YOu have a problem”
sammygol, Thanks for sharing that story.
I think it speaks well that the Rov stood up for what he felt halachicly correct, without compromise.
yup. there are many many many problems with public eiruvin
HIE, every rav has areas where he is maikel or machmir. As long as you are consistently following your rav, that is ok.
I think you need to review Judaism 101…
The problem isn’t just the width of the road. It is the number of people who are outside. R’ Moshe and a few other Rabbonim did some research, and determined that approximately 1/5th of the population of a city can be expected to be outdoors. That would mean that Brooklyn needs a population of 3 million to count as a reshus harabim. Now, it doesn’t have to at any given time – it has to occur only once a year. R’ Moshe said that even if the population is slightly below 3 million, it’s still a reshus harabim, because during the summer, thousands of people go to Coney Island beach, and they’re all outdoors.
Sefardim have it even tougher. R’ Moshe held that people in cars don’t count towards the necessary 600,000. R’ Ovadia Yosef shlita holds that they do count, so for sefardim, you definitely have the 600,000.
I heard all this from a rebbe of mine, who had discussed the issue with R’ Moshe many years ago. He is also a prominent Rav in Brooklyn.
Well, you just threw a monkey wrench into the equation. Brooklyn does not have a population of 3 million. It certainly didn’t have even close to that 20 years ago.
Brooklyn has a population, according to the U.S. Census, of over 2.5 Million. It is widely acknowledged the census severely undercounts the population in high illegal immigrant areas such as Brooklyn. Feif also stated “Now, it doesn’t have to at any given time – it has to occur only once a year. R’ Moshe said that even if the population is slightly below 3 million, it’s still a reshus harabim”
OY OY OY, I am SO holding my tongue on this one!!!!!
OOMIS- no need to hold ur tongue. Just talk. We wanna hear you…
Hashem Is Everywhere
Member
TRUTHSHARER, “… i was by 19 a long time ago, before you were probably born.”
Hashem Is Everywhere
Member
“…I don’t think I would have been able to sit and learn all day in 9th grade. even now, 4 years I have a hard time sitting through all 3 sedorim.”
Hashem Is Everywhere
Member
“…I don’t find the time i spent on secular studies “Bitul Z’man” although some of it may have been. i hope to pursue a college degree soon…”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
please make up one story as to who you are and stick with it! I really do not care what role you want to play, but choose one and stick with it.
@Mod72, that was brilliant!
What was the name of that book some 15 years ago? Troubled Identity?
sammygol: and True Identity!
“…I don’t think I would have been able to sit and learn all day in 9th grade. even now, 4 years I have a hard time sitting through all 3 sedorim.”
“…I don’t find the time i spent on secular studies “Bitul Z’man” although some of it may have been. i hope to pursue a college degree soon…”
this was said by my son.
perhaps you should logout when you are not posting, your son is killing your reputation. If you wish, have your son create his own screen name. you can email the mod of your choice with that name and that mod will share it with the other mods.
Hmmm, sounds familiar…
whenever he makes his own screen name it gets blocked.
i will e-mail you, which mod are you?
Mod 72. there can be various reasons as to why he is getting blocked. Send me an email from both you and your son with the new screen name that your son is choosing and I will share that information with the moderation panel. in addition, I strongly recommend that you review the following thread: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/rules-of-the-ywn-coffee-room-please-read
Joseph,
The Census already estimated the counts of illegals when they count the population.
truthsharer: I provided the enumerated census count, that the U.S. Census is constitutionally obligated to do. The estimated number is a separate count.
truthsharer: R’ Moshe said that because of Coney Island in the summer, it is still a problem.
Feif Un, Coney Island in 2009 is not what it was when R’ Moshe wrote the teshuva.
Joseph, the population of Brooklyn is no where near 3 million and it’s not even close even if you include the illegals. I can be emphatic if you want.
Joseph, estimates of illegals in NYS is 500,000. Even if half of that would be in Brooklyn, the population would still not cross 3 million.
I can check, but am almost certain that the population of Brooklyn today is not much different (in fact there may have been a very slight increase) than it was during Reb Moshe’s time.
Decrease, plus as feif un mentioned, there is also a decrease in Coney Island goers.
# 2008: 2,556,598
# 2007: 2,539,206
# 2006: 2,508,820
# 1990: 2,300,664
# 1980: 2,230,936
# 1970: 2,602,012
# 1960: 2,627,319
# 1950: 2,738,175
# 1940: 2,698,285
So the change between 1960 or 1970 and 2008 is not all that much. I don’t see how it would impact Reb Moshe tshuva on this issue.
Because there is nowhere near 3 million people in Brooklyn.
Same story as during Reb Moshe’s time. So the psak is the same.
truthsharer, it’s not only Brooklyn people who go to Coney Island, people travel in from other areas as well.
With 2.5 million people in Brooklyn, according to R’ Moshe, you have 500,000 people outside on any given day. On a Sunday in the summer, that number can go up by another 100,000 very easily. During the NYC marathon, there are thousands of runners outside on the streets, with thousands more standing around watching them.
Let’s not forget that Brooklyn and Queens boundary is an artificial one, both being well interconnected. What’s more, the BQE fully integrated these boroughs, and the Queens-Brooklyn have grown out toward the LI, with combined population WELL over 3 million. If in Reb Moshe’s time this was an issue, it is much more so today.
Which makes one wonder why R’ Moshe allowed the eruv in Queens.
Do all you paskin like Rav Moshe only l’chumra, or l’kula too?
cherrybim:
Are you asking if someone uses Reb Moshe’s kula for, say, Cholov Stam does he also abide by Reb Moshe’s chumra of not using a Shabbos clock for an air conditioner?
Just want to clarify your question.
Both ways.
Or for not having a separate dishwasher for milchigs and fleishigs, etc.
cherrybim
While your question is valid, one still needs to differentiate between chumros/kulos and a Safeik Deorayso, which Hotzoah happens to be. Therefore, someone can be meikel on using a shabbos clock on an air conditioner, due to it being permitted by most other poskim, and still not rely on an eruv in Brooklyn, since one is ‘Niro keissur” and for the other one a person can get skila if with eidim and a warning.
truthsharer: R’ Moshe held that there’s a big difference between Brooklyn and Queens. Halachically, he said Brooklyn is considered as one city, while Queens is considered as multiple small ones. The reason was that if you mail a letter to someone in Brooklyn, you write “Brooklyn, NY”. You don’t write Flatbush or Boro Park, you write Brooklyn.
If you mail a letter to Queens, you don’t write “Queens, NY”. You write Kew Garden Hills, or Flushing, etc.
That also explains why each community in Queens has its own eruv, and some people hold you shouldn’t carry from one to the other on Shabbos.
Feif Un, do you believe that makes sense? That the halacha should be determined by some trivial history of the USPS? You can also write Queens, NY and it will get delivered fine.
truthsharer: It made sense to R’ Moshe…
Joseph: Please don’t try to bring your cholov stam agenda into this. It’s been discussed way too much already.
Do you think there’s room to l’chatchila hold l’chumra and not use the Eruv, but to go l’kula and use the Eruv b’shas hadchak?
cherrybim, that is what most poskim will secretly tell you. (IOW, the eruv is kosher, but don’t use it except in an emergency. R’ Dovid Cohen is one person who has stated publicly that the eruv is OK.)
Feif: I was clarifying the preceding post by someone. And its no agenda, they are facts.
truthsharer: I’ve never heard that R’ Cohen said the eruv is ok. AFAIK, he actually said it’a assur to use it.
cherrybim: according to R’ Moshe, there’s not. R’ Moshe didn’t hold it as a chumrah, he held it’s chillul Shabbos d’oraysah. If it’s a real shas hadchak, like pikuach nefesh, you don’t need an eruv anyway, so what’s the issue?
So why do you think HaRav Menashe Klein is the Rav Hamachsher?
mod72, i’ll e-mail you
OK
“I’ve never heard that R’ Cohen said the eruv is ok. AFAIK, he actually said it’a assur to use it.”
I think he said that it’s at least a safek eruv.
HIE (or whoever you are)…
I spoke with my rav* and he confirmed what I pretty much suspected… that the misuse of an eruv by some does NOT invalidate the eruv at all. I also asked him if he ever heard of the sefer you mentioned and he did not.
So, it comes back to this… you gave me a claim from a sefer which I cannot find and for which you cannot name an author. I have no idea who wrote this sefer, whether it is an authoritative sefer, or even whether or not it actually exists.
So, I put the ball back in your court. Please back up your statement that the misuse of the eruv by some invalidates it for all.
The Wolf
* A fellow who, I should point out, is opposed to the Flatbush eruv.
HIE must ask his father.
“”What a horrible story!”
It figures. Only you would say that a rav standing up for the honor of Torah is a horrible story. I suppose you would have liked it better if he allowed people who arent frum according to him to be eidim? “
Moshe, the way the story was originally posted, it did sound horrible. With the additional details, the story is different. And, I would hope that even those who don’t hold by the eruv recognize that someone who is following their LOR’s shitta is still an observant Jew. Unfortunately, I have come across rabbonim who don’t, but I would like to hope that most do.
A question for those who don’t hold by the eruv – what do you do for family simchas? We have my SIL’s sheva brachot this Shabbos in Brooklyn and I have a newborn. Are you all stuck in the house all the time and can’t attend your sibling’s affairs?
EDITED in blue.
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