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BS”D
Also, there are far more children of RZ families who become more charedi than vice versa as it once was. Even some nominal RZ have charedi hashkafas especially after the double shock of Yigal Amir (framed or not) and Gush Katif which led to a general decline in the self-image of religious Zionists and questioning of their ideology.
Today’s real religious Zionists, the hilltop youth, Bat Ayin etc, are new age neo- Charedim who follow a strange mixture of Chabad, Breslov, Carlebach (music or ideology – I am not sure) and the writings not so much of Rav A”Y Kook but of his more radical son. Their rov is the decidedly charedi Chabad mekubal R’ Yitzchak Ginzburgh and I believe they also respect R’ Eliezer Berland of Shuvu Bonim who is politically somewhere to the right of R’ Meir Kahane HY”D. Strange people and way outside the mainstream but at least they have real values which they put themselves on the line for and are not corrupted by the medine that has so disappointed their sincerely old line RZ parents.
Not pshut, why do you define success only politically?
itzik, i think i’m right in saying that most of rav kook’s followers aren’t really following his shitta. he wouldn’t agree with half the things they say and do. but rav kook himself was a great man and even though he had a lot of opposition, you can’t say he wasn’t chashuv.
BS”D
I agree. Some of his so called followers make him sound like a certain musical performer and self appointed rebbele in terms of disdain for halacha and lack of boundaries between mutar and ossur L”A.
RoB,
The quotes from R’ Pam expressing his disdain & disgust can be found in the biography in the chapter about Shuvu & how the Zionist Reshaim have done & continue to do everything in their power to thwart all attempts to be mekarev Yiddishe kinderlach.
As far as the quotes from R’ Shlomo Zalman – I can’t remember which chapter it’s in, but the context is something to the effect of “Begin was also a Rasha, just not as big a Rasha as all the Reshaim who served before him & after him.” You can read the book anyway, we can all learn alot from it.
By the way let’s not forget our good freind Shimon Peres who called David Hamelech a homosexual or the fact that abortions are legal, autopsies are carried out daily, kevarim are dug up for the “holy” purpose of aercheology, there is a toeiva parade in Yerushalayim & Avigdor Lieberman who will probably win at least 16 seats tommorrow wants to legalize the sale of pork countywide.
Ahhh what a wonderful kiddush hashem, a real heilige medina.
You say,
“To say that I am closing my eyes against reality is truly breathtaking in its temerity. The Agudah has stagnated and has had the SAME amount of chavrei knesset for SIXTY years now and whether you like it or not, the agenda of Rav Kook and the religious zionists is the one that has triumphed and GROWN in these past thirty years…SO, put this in your pipe and smoke it..or maybe something other than tobacco…”
Well, first of all the Agudah started out with 2 or 3 seats & now has 7, this in spite of the fact that the country has grown by about 900% percent. Add to that Shas’ 10 seats, at least 5 of which come from chareidi voters & you’ve got at least 400% growth. (In reality it’s a heck of alot more than that considering the amount of votes neccesary to win a seat these days)(In spite of the medina importing 800,000 Russian goyim to try to stunt it).
The Mafdal 10 years ago had 10 seats & today doesn’t exist. As I mentioned, the four dati-leumi parties COMBINED are expected to garner THREE seats. I guess that comprises all the religious zionists in the army.
cantoresq
“Not pashut, why do you define success only politically? “
cantoresq, why do you define success only financially?
Joseph, all the quotes you posted don’t go against the state of Israel. They go against the people who founded it, and many who are currently running it. The only one you mentioned who actually shares your view is the Satmar Rav zt”l – he held it was assur to establish a state of Israel. R’ Shach zt”l and many gedolim nowadays participate in the Israeli government by advising people who to vote for. They aren’t against the state of Israel, they just want it run properly. The Gedolim now would have no problem with Israel were it run by the Shas party, or by another religious group.
Jospeh, you are simply a Neturei Karta nutjob. Admit it. I’ll have you in mind by davening today when I say V’Lamalshinim.
cantoresq
“Not pashut, why do you define success only politically? “
cantoresq, why do you define success only financially?
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I didn’t. I referred to the intelectual output of the Dati Leumi community, as well as the strength of their yeshivot. But I might point out that financial health is far more important to the future of a community than is political prowess. The Mishne says “Im ein kemach ein Torah.” It says nothing about political muscle.
well, notpashut, you have just re-inforced what I said- you are doing a wonderful three monte crad trick.
But I say “naisai sefer venechze”. Let’s see what the FACTS say !!!! all the following numbers are from wikipedia- and , I imagine reliable,unless you want to make up other numbers, of course.
Firstly- in the first knesset there was a UNITED RELIGIOUS FRONT (so much for the evil religious zionists) 16 seats.
After this, for FIFTY YEARS the chareidim have had virtually unchanged numbers , five to six seats,with some rare exceptions.
You are disingenious in saying that the agudah had three in the beginning. Yes, true, but Poalei agudah, the OTHER chareidi party, also had three, for a total of six.
But the actual numbers voting sre more instructive. Here they are (rounded up), year by year, for all chareidi parties (agudah, degel hatorah and poalei agudah):
1951- 25,000, 1955- 40,000 1959 – 45,000 1961 – 57,000 1965- 61,000
1969 – 69,000 1973 – 60,000 1977 – 82,000 1981 – 72,000 1984 – 36,000
1988 – 136,000 1992 – 86,000 1996- 98,000 1999 – 125,000 2003- 135,000
A steady progression, for sure (except 1984- inexplicable to me,unless it is the emergence of shas) which, of course, reflects the increase in people B’H.
However, the PERCENTAGE of voters has barely changed since the beginning, regardless of the high birth rate or any other reasons.
so, when you say that the chareidim will be in the majoirty in 10-20 years, you are just spouting propaganda.
Shas is not a chareidi party, as it has many,many non-religious voters.
And- in response to your snide comments about the religious zionists, they have consistently garnered about nine=ten seats, whether as the old mafdal or a combination of the many different wings of the religious zionist camp.
so, dear notpashut, you can run around spreading a lot of propaganda but , in fact, your chareidi world has barely increased its representation in sixty years.
As far as all those quotations from “books”, I don’t take my rulings from “maaseh bichlech”
I agree with notpashut. Zionism is dying a swift death, and we are now witnessing it.
Some stuff on Rav Kook:
He was Rav Elyashiv’s Mesader Kiddushin.
Rav Hutner said about himself that “the alter of slabodka built the bayis (first floor) and Rav Kook built the aliyah (2nd floor)”. He used to have a picture of Rav Kook in his sukkah. He took it down after the controversy about national service for women, and replaced it with that of the Chazon Ish.
Far be it from me to take sides in this debate. I will, however, quote an interesting Mahara”l I just happened to see recently. The Mahara”l preceded the whole question of Zionism by 400 years.
I do not have a full Maharal set at home, but I will try to verify the following at some future time. The English Artscroll Nesivos Olam Nesiv Hatorah, page 226, talks about why an am ha’aretz is more disposed to having talmidei chachamim as children than a Talmid chacham. he says that the physicality of the am ha’aretz acts as a physical vessel for the intellectual greatness of the Talmid Chochom. Footnote # 62 (page 227) brings down a quote from the Maharal’s Gevuros Hashem, but unfortunately doesn’t give a chapter. Moshe Rabbeinu was raised in the physicality of Pharaoh’s palace to enable his holiness to emerge from a physical vessel. So too, the kingdom of Moshiach will emerge from a profane kingdom preceding it, for the same reason. I will somehow attempt to hunt down this quote without ticking off my night seder chavrusa (as a baalabos, I don’t have the bein hasedarim time I had when I was a yeshiva man). The gist of this seems to be saying that:
1. the current “kingdom” has no kedusha; it’s the equivalent of Pharaoh’s palace;
2. that said, it is a necessary antecedent to allow the kingdom of Moshiach to eventually spring from it.
So the Mahar”al would not say “yevarech es medinas Yisroel”, just like one doesn’t bless Pharaoh’s household, but it IS reishis tzmichas Geuloseinu. No Hallel on Yom Ha’Atzmaut for him, but the miraculous blooming of the desert is no maaseh satan either. He wouldn’t make a mishebeirach for the medina, but he would make one for the soldiers who risk their lives to save Jews from enemies.
This does not fit into the views of many here.It’s simultaneously Zionist and anti-Zionist. However, it’s a very refreshing view. I find myself predisposed to it, as it simultaneously answers many legitimate points brought up by both sides of the debate, and he’s untouchable as a mekor.
SJS,
[Becher is]
This is a quote from the ruling by Israeli Judge Halevi against Kastner:
“It is clear that the positive recommendation by Kastner, not only in his own name but also in the name of the Jewish Agency and the Jewish World Congress was of decisive importance for [Nazi Col. Kurt]
(The Judge also found Kastner guilty of “selling his soul to the devil”, the devil being Eichmann and the deal Kastner struck with Eichmann allowing Eichmann to easily deport Hungarian Jewry to Auschwitz without resistance.)
This is a quote from Rudolf Vrba, who escaped Auschwitz and reported what was happening there to Kastner:
“I am a Jew. In spite of that, indeed because of that, I accuse certain Jewish leaders of one of the most ghastly deeds of the war. This small group of quislings knew what was happening to their brethren in Hitler’s gas chambers and bought their own lives with the price of silence. Among them was Dr. Kasztner, leader of the council which spoke for all Jews in Hungary. While I was prisoner number 44070 at Auschwitz – the number is still on my arm – I compiled careful statistics of the exterminations . . . I took these terrible statistics with me when I escaped in 1944 and I was able to give Hungarian Zionist leaders three weeks notice that Eichmann planned to send a million of their Jews to his gas chambers . . . Kasztner went to Eichmann and told him, ‘I know of your plans; spare some Jews of my choice and I shall keep quiet.’ Eichmann not only agreed, but dressed Kasztner up in S.S. uniform and took him to Belsen to trace some of his friends. Nor did the sordid bargaining end there. Kasztner paid Eichmann several thousand dollars. With this little fortune, Eichmann was able to buy his way to freedom when Germany collapsed, to set himself up in the Argentine . . .”
And the devil himself:
Except perhaps for the first few sessions, Kastner never came to me fearful of the Gestapo strong man. We negotiated entirely as equals. People forget that. We were political opponents trying to arrive at a settlement, and we trusted each other perfectly. When he was with me, Kastner smoked cigarettes as though he were in a coffeehouse. While we talked he would smoke one aromatic cigarette after another, taking them from a silver case and lighting them with a little silver lighter. With his great polish and reserve he would have made an ideal Gestapo officer himself.
And of course the Zionists sabatoged the trucks for Hungarian Jewish lives deal by tipping off the British authorities to arrest the Jewish emissary sent from Europe to the middle east to facilitate the deal.
etc. etc. etc.
Farf Un – Refuah Shelamo. The fact you feel that anti-zionists including the Gedolim are neteurei karta’nik’s, clearly demonstrates you can see nothing beyond your false religion of zionism. They Gedolim are, and were, very clearly against the State. Read them again.
catoresq – “Im ein kemach ein Torah.” And there IS Torah. So by definition, the kemach is obviously there (with the hishtadlus.)
Joseph, I never said every zionist is a wonderful human being or that individual zionists werent dispicable people. So yes, Dr Kantor was a collaborator of the NAZIs which makes him dispicable (as I said “The NAZIS and their collaborators are responsible.”). Does that mean every zionist leader is dispicable?
To be honest, I do not base my opinion of R’ Miller based on what is written on here, so you don’t have to worry about that.
Notpashut, perhaps I went a little far – I am not sure. But I am still thankful to the Jews who helped my grandfather grow to adulthood, and that would be the Zionists (among others).
No, Joseph, they’re against the non-religious people running the state. Did you see the story today? R’ Shteinman shlita said even people sitting shiva need to go vote. R’ Ovadia Yosef shlita said it’s a mitzvah to go vote. If they were against the state, why encourage people to participate in the elections? The NK boycotts the elections.
Sadly, you fail to differentiate between the state itself and the people running it. If Israel were run by Torah-observant Jews, even the Rabbonim you mentioned (with the exception of the Satmar Rav zt”l) wouldn’t have a problem with it.
jothar- allow me to say in yiddish; ” a brocho oif dein kopf “
You have introduced – FINALLY – something new and truly spiritual.
AND- it TOTALLY dovetails with the whole hashkofoh of Rav Kook zz’l. The present medinah is only the precursor of a true Jewish medinah and it is a PREREQUISITE for it!
I think – and I do not remember the mekor- that the Rambam says that the geulah will start with totally non-religious people and they will pave the way for the ultimate geulah. But don’t quote me on that- just quote the Maharal!
BTW- saying hallel on yom ha-atzmaut (or jon jerudhulaim) has nothing to do with zionism and everything to do with geulah- check the gemoro in megillah.
Just started doing maseches megilla for a siyum attempt by the purim seudah. reminded me of one of my favorite megilla jokes:
Why does it take stmar forever to read the megillah?
Because they klop every time it says “medina”!
Once again, as a reminder- i hold whatever the Mahara”l holds.
SJS:
I think you still missed Rabbi Avigdor Miller’s point. You said that Kastner was a collaborator and despicable but you question whether other zionist leaders are. The answer is an unequivocal yes. Kastner was, as pointed out, just an example of the atrocities committed by the zionists prior to statehood. There are so many others. Did you also read Rabbi Hutner’s description (in addition to Rabbi Miller’s) earlier in the thread of their activities during that time frame?
What you are asking, to put it in other terms, is if the Nazi’s (yms) are really all bad, since there were some exceptions where individual Nazi’s actually saved Jews. The answer there too is an unequivocal yes, you can clearly state that the Nazi’s were bad. Same with the zionists.
cantoresq:
Trying to shut up discussion by calling all who you disagree with you fanatics is comical. Effectively YOU are engaged in ideological fanaticism. The truth is a very powerful thing, and it hurts those opposed to it. The ostrich buries its head in the sand. You can close your ears and heart to it, but the truth it remains.
Jothar:
Good joke!
BTW Its good you stressed that reminder after someone tried to portray your views as something other than what you stated.
Satmar is short for Saint Mary.
Jothar’s Maharal puts G-d back in the drivers seat of Jewish history.
Josh, G-d always was in the drivers seat. Its too bad you failed to recognize that.
ujm, mmmm…care to bring some reality in the debate? cantoresq may not be right in trying to censor debate but then you and all the others who espouse your view are fighting battles of the past….it is as you would fight today about “kemeyas” (the virulent machlokes beteen r’jonasan eibeshitz and his detractors). this is history and has absolutely no relevance today…I don’t believe that the ‘evil zionists’ were evil as you protray them and you have absoluteyl no hard proof either. But has it advanced yiddishkeit one iota?
this is why I prefer not to engage in arguments about the holocaust and about the medinah. It does not advance yiddishkeit one bit and only time will tell.
Josh31: that comment is real sad!!!
lol good one Joseph.
i heard s.t nice about E’Y recently…for all the ladies here…Hashem is being careful with all the rockets, they miss so many times (most times actually) by just inches; we should be careful with our inches too…
berlin:
Did you bother reading the Gedolim quotes on the first page of this thread? Did you bother reading what Rabbi Hutner ztl and Rabbi Miller ztl and others have said about the zionists war-time treachery and murder?
Did you bother to read what Judge Halevi and Rudolf Vrba said about the zionist Kasztner?
These are a few, out of an ocean, of examples.
Herr OberRabbiner von Berlin:
i’m not trying to censor debate. If there were a possiblity of intelectually honest discussion on this board on the subject, I would happily participate. But there is none, and I’m done chasing my tail.
I failed to explain myself properly. I always believe that G-d is in the drivers seat controlling Jewish history. We will never understand G-d’s reasons for allowing the holocaust to occur. But afterwards the Jewish people were so demoralized that if He had not restored us to our land and granted us some sovereignty, we would have (G-d forbid) given up. In Egypt 3300 years ago the Jews were also on the edge of complete demoralization and Redemption had to come before we gave up.
Based upon this line of thinking those who say the entire Jewish State is from the Sitra Achra (closest English translation – “dark side of the force) are in fact denying G-d’s Providence with the Jewish people.
Joseph: Your virulent attacks on Zionism and the Jewish State are attacks on one of the pillars of my faith.
rob said on this issue, on more than once occasion, that “only time will tell” who is right in this debate. This demonstrates (something he will surely now be quick to deny) that he lacks confidence in his position. The Gedolei Yisroel clearly are quite confident in their descriptions of the zionists. (i.e. Rav Hutner who wrote about the zionists past crimes – something rob describes as the Gedolim fighting past issues. Hard proof, we some of that right here on these comments above.)
Josh31: “Joseph: Your virulent attacks on Zionism and the Jewish State are attacks on one of the pillars of my faith.”
That’s just what I’ve been saying all along!! Zionism and the “Jewish” State have replaced Judaism as a pillar of faith for its adherents!
Also, it is the Gedolim’s “virulent attacks on Zionism and the Jewish State” that I merely subscribe to.
joseph- I truly don’t understand whay you are writing. I (and many others) truly beleive in our shittah and declare this over and over again. And many others have sacrificed their lives and their bodies over it.
When I say that ‘time will tell”, I actually mean to say that time will show to YOU and others that we are right because I think that we are right.
Nonetheless, I don’t have the chutzpah to say that I am perfect and that I know all, or even that the gedolim I have chosen to follow are perfect and infallible. If I hear from any godol that he thinks that he knows all and that only his shittah is correct, I would have the same reaction, which is disbelief. This is what led to so many tragedies in the past. NO ONE has the monopoly for the truth. Even Moshe Rabbeinu had to show the Almighty’s SIMAN that Korach was wrong.
You are so certain that you are right. All right, time will indeed tell.But i suspect that you and the ones who follow your shittah will look at the prosperity and the future and twist its meaning again, as so many have done. because you will always ignore reality. As they say, “me shpaiyt of dos punim und ehr zogt as es regent” That is in the “holy’ language of yiddish.
So, no, I am not quick to deny nayhting. I always write what I believe.
ujm—as i said, i will not discuss this matter anymore. Your feet are stuck in concrete.
When a positive development occurs to the Jewish people we are obligated to recognize it as a positive development and recognize the hand of G-d in it.
If the Jewish State had not occured there would have been far less Torah learning and far more intermarriage in the past 60 years.
I admit that there are some negatives, but we still must see the positives.
Even without the Jewish State (G-d forbid) the Arab lands would have become extremely hostile for any continuation of Jewish life there.
The canard that the Arab world has become so repressive only because of the formation of Israel is the cenrtral BLOOD LIBEL of our times.
What you are asking, to put it in other terms, is if the Nazi’s (yms) are really all bad, since there were some exceptions where individual Nazi’s actually saved Jews. The answer there too is an unequivocal yes, you can clearly state that the Nazi’s were bad. Same with the zionists.
The NAZI movement was disgusting. They were built up the goal of destroying other “undesirables,” which were mostly Jews. They were a movement of hatred and murder.
Zionism is nothing like that. Zionism paved the way for many people to leave their own countries before WWII. Were there many problems with zionist leaders? Sure. And there were many problems with other Jews diong dispicable acts during the Holocaust.
You could also say things to the effect of “With so many Orthodox Jews in Jail, maybe Judaism is NOT a moral way of life. After all, there are so many corrupt Jews.” That is what you seem to be saying about Zionism.
Many of us view zionism as the start of geulah. Its a way of establishing infrastructure and life before the geulah comes. Werent Bnei Yisroel chastized for not wanting to come back to Israel post Churban I?
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