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How does the dating system in Eretz Yisroel favorably compare to the American dating system? In Eretz Yisroel the guy and gal meet at a mutually agreed location whereas in America they follow the practice adopted from the goyim of the guy coming to pickup the girl.
Joseph: And what about in Europe where the boy traveled to the girls town?
“In Eretz Yisroel the guy and gal meet at a mutually agreed location whereas in America they follow the practice adopted from the goyim of the guy coming to pickup the girl.”
Yet another reason to live in E”Y instead of shmutz la’aretz.
The tradition of the guy picking up the girl is because it’s dangerous/unseemly for a girl to have to walk alone after dark.
Joseph why is one more goyish than the other? Both are accepted cultural norms and both aren’t the way yidden married (no dating) in the time of chazal.
What did they do in Morocco?
Many people pick up or drop of the girl if the guy has a car.
Most people here do not so therefore…busses.Trust me, I’d rather get in a car than have to get on the same bus as my date back home and awkwardly try and figure out if we should sit near each other, or not, and if so worry about people looking at us.
Joey’s awareness of dating protocols seem to be on par with his rather limited social skills on other matters. Having the boy pick up the girl is NOT a goiyeshe custom but quite common historically across all ethnic groups. In many cases the guy was older than the girl and her parents wanted to meet him. Also, in high schools, the boy typically gets his driver’s license sooner so it makes sense. Finally, and probably most antithetical to Joey is the notion of the guy being a “gentleman”….a thoroughly goiyeshe concept.
In reality, it increasingly works BOTH ways in EY and here in the U.S., espeically as more frum young women join the workforce. sometimes pick=up and sometimes just meet after work at some mutually convenient location.
How is the system in Eretz Yisroel any less “adopted from the goyim” than the system in America?
Joseph,
What an odd question from someone who has called our generation “sinful” for not universally adopting Beshow dating, which takes place in the girl’s home.
iac: That sounds like a beshow.
takah: I take it your family follows the aforementioned way it’s done in Eretz Yisroel.
RY23: Why/how so?
CS: The American way is a pretty close copy of the traditional goyish way of dating.
Shopping: In America, unlike Eretz Yisroel, if the guy doesn’t have a car then he’ll rent a car for the date or otherwise procure a car specially for the date.
GH: The way it’s done in America is relatively new to the frum community. There aren’t any historical precedents for it in the frum community over a hundred years ago.
Meno: How might you think that the system in Eretz Yisroel *is* in any way adopted from the goyim?
Phil: That’s false. I’ve never said that or anything resembling that.
Joseph, a vague answer wouldn’t give you enough information, and a detailed answer is not appropriate for this board.
“Phil: That’s false. I’ve never said that or anything resembling that.”
Joseph,
You sure did; on 8/7/17:
Sima commented at 2:17pm:
“Joseph and Yekke2 are both right so maybe the Chassidish way is better – just meet in the parents or the shadchan’s home. No deciding where to go etc and the girl is not expected to arrive as though she is a film star.”to which Joseph replied at 2:56pm:
“Of course this isn’t ideal. But I’m dealing with the metzius of our weak, sinful, generation. Ideally, of course, we should change how Sima, above, in her comment rightfully suggested. But until we reach that madreiga (may it be very soon) we need to deal with the facts on the ground that the non-Chasidish and super-Yeshivish oilem deals with this.”The best comment on that thread by far was from mylogic37:
“Joseph, I hope you are kidding and just trolling. If not you seriously need help.”to which the mods replied:
“You must be new here. Welcome”Joe, please try to keep better track of your offensive, judgmental comments from now on, okay?
RY23: I’d still like to hear your short version, please.
Phil: False, again. Sima suggested the Chasidish system is better. I replied that it is ideal but realistically we need to deal with the fact that most people don’t use that shidduch system. At no point had I suggested it sinful, as you falsely attributed, to not use that system.
Joseph, I highly doubt that by goyim today, the guy comes to the girl’s home, sits and talks with her parents, and then takes her out. They probably just arrange to meet at a bar or cafe or whatever.
The differences I think stem from practical reasons.
In E”Y the couple either meets in some lobby or by someone else’s apt- perhaps grandparents or the shadchan, somewhere neutral where nosy siblings and neighbors aren’t around. Most of the boys do not drive (many yeshivas do not let bochurim get licenses) and as shopping mentioned, it is awkward to travel together by public transportation, so the couple travels separately to the meeting place. It is much safer for a girl to travel around by herself at night than in the US- she doesn’t have to worry about being alone on a subway dressed up with jewelry. Also, it would be weird for the guy to come to her place- people live very close together and it would be impossible to keep anything private.
What they miss out on is the parent meeting the boy at the date. To get around this, the father will sometimes arrange a pre-date to meet the boy first (not at home) and the mother will do the same with the girl, or at least arrange to see her at some public event like a chasuna.Winnie: Notice my above comment referencing “the traditional goyish way of dating.” Meaning, when the American yeshivish dating system was inaugurated in America, decent goyim would typically go to the girl’s home to pick her up for the date.
What you described about Israeli yeshivish dates meeting by someone else’s apartment (grandparents, shadchan, etc.) sounds closer to the Chasidish dating system than to the American yeshivish dating system.
Joseph,
“But I’m dealing with the metzius of our weak, sinful, generation”
Your own words.
When walking on the street at night, women risk being harmed by strange, bad men who roam the streets after dark.
Ok here you go:
The American system is terrible because it shows respect towards women, whereas women are supposed to respect men, not the other way around.
Happy now?
Meno, is it your contention that the Yidden in Eretz Yisroel today (let alone all the doros and doros of Yidden before America) don’t respect women?
No and that’s one reason why picking up the girl on the date (especially with safety reasons involved) seems very much in line with Jewish values and not goyishe values that have crept in. (Another reason is that the man is playing the leader/ protector, also in line with Jewish values).
“In Eretz Yisroel the guy and gal meet at a mutually agreed location whereas in America they follow the practice adopted from the goyim of the guy coming to pickup the girl.”
As always Joseph, you have it backwards.
A quick poll in my office (7 people 5 Female 2 male)
all agreed of the 2 descriptions the E”Y system was far more similar to how they and/or those they know) dateNo, Joseph. You’re misunderstanding me.
The point I’m trying to make is that the Yidden in Eretz Yisroel are following Halacha by not allowing a woman to leave the house without explicit permission from a man.
ubiq: You’re Chasidish and this thread is dealing with the Yeshivish system.
“Meno, is it your contention that the Yidden in Eretz Yisroel today (let alone all the doros and doros of Yidden before America) don’t respect women?”
Joseph,
I think Meno’s contention might be that you don’t respect women; your hostility and disdain for them oozes forth every time you troll. Happy now?
i hated the nyc style of schlepping to the girl and then wining and dining her. It’s definitely goyish. It spoils them. Go ahead and argue with me with all the rude comments.
Women are people.
There are some real misconceptions about the goyische world and dating expressed in this thread.
Since I live in small town CT I have observed much of what goes on in both goyische and not frum situations,#1 Most single frum girls live at home until married. Thus the boy is expected to come to the house meet the parents and get parental approval before the girl goes out the door.
#2 In the non-frum and goyische world girls marry later and are generally living on their own before dating for marriage. No need for the boy to come to the home and get parental approval to go out.
#3 Non-frum and high school girls date in High School (or Junior High) for fun, not marriage. These girls live at home. The boys do come to the house and are subjected to the parents before the girls go out. I have seen neighbors inspecting not only the boy, but his vehicle…is it safe enough to transport their precious daughter?
Two of my daughters were either living at home or with a relative while in college when dating. The boys all had to come to the house and pass muster with Mrs. CTL and myself or my Sister In Law and her husband. The third daughter was introduced to her chasson by a law school professor. Both young people were living in graduate housing at the university. Neither kept a car in the city while in school. They would meet at the law library and go out from there. Neither would have permitted the other in their apartment while single. They had met in class, and the professor who suggested the shidduch was known to me and contacted me in advance for permission. I trusted the professor’s judgment. It was right, they dated, married, both are in my law practice and they have given us a grandson this year.
Ancient Jewish custom:
So what to do with the Mishneh in Taanis about girls dancing in the fields so that boys could gaze at them, and choose a bride. On Yom Kippur and Tu B’shvat no less.
In fact, the girls opened the conversation.. ( See Mishneh, Perek 4)
Now there’s a Jewish minhag.I’ve no idea about Israeli dating but I’ve observed the dating models of my non Jewish friends children and have had many a conversation about it. In most cases non Jewish women who are interested in dating and marriage are out in the work force and living independent of their parents. When dates occur after work hours many times these people will meet at the movie theater or the restaurant they have chosen (or golf course or tennis court etc) . An initial date may just be a meet up at a bookstore or a coffee shop. Parents typically don’t meet these ‘dates’ unless some kind of a relationship develops.
CTL and Amil: Permit me please to repeat what I wrote above to Winnie:
Notice my above comment referencing “the *traditional* goyish way of dating.” Meaning, when the American yeshivish dating system was inaugurated in America, decent goyim would typically go to the girl’s home to pick her up for the date.
I am aware that the goyim have degenerated since then, as you pointed out, where today that system has mostly gone into the trash and replacing it is a system where they date for fun (as you mentioned) and worse rather than for marriage with the parents mostly having been kicked out of the equation.
Joseph, so you mean going back to the 1950’s version of non Jewish dating? What year did things begin to degenerate for non Jews? You seem to have an idealized history/vision of a community you have very little contact with. IRRC non Jewish members of my extended family dating as I represented in my previous post in the 50’s.
Joe,
So are you saying we should do away with the black hats and shtreimel because goyim wore them
Joseph, I’m truly curious about where you got these stereotypes of nonJewish dating?
Funny that our resident troll shares a simplistic vision of American family and social life at its zenith in the 1950s crica Leave it to Beaver world where women stayed at home, men labored in factories making “hard stuff” like steel , where virtually all your neighbors were white and gays were still hiding in the closet. In those “good ole days” the boys would all come to the girls’ house for a parental exorcism before being allowed out of the house with the parent’s daughter. As the theme song of Archie Bunker TV show went. Those were the days when “men were men”….those were the days.
Joseph’s concept of Non-Jewish dating in America before ‘degeneration’ (a despicable hate filled term) is rooted in pre WWII life. In WWII when 17 million American Men were off trying to Defeat the Axis young single women were encouraged to move to the city and work in war industry, living away from family and getting a higher education.
This dynamic changed American society forever, ended the war sooner and in the Allies favor and saved untold Yidden from death.
He should stop being so derogatory.Eretz Yisrael dating: dd/mm/yy
American dating: mm/dd/yy😂🤣 thanks, I needed that -29
Ctl; Why do you feel spiritual degeneration is a despicable hate filled term?
Uncle Ben
Joseph did NOT write ‘spiritual’ degeneration! He said the goyim have degenerated. That is spewing hate. I know many ‘spiritual’
My small town of about 35,000 has more than 12 churches (in addition to shuls and Chabad) 5 parochial schools, 2 Catholic High Schools, an Evangelical K-12 school, a Bishopric and seminary. It is mostly single family homes, most people know or recognize each other and boys still come to the parents house to pick up girl for a date.
People recognize each other’s cars (all of ours have vanity plates) and a young person driving or acting irresponsibly will elicit a call to the parents or a balling out by neighbors. It is common for families to be third or fourth generation to live here and for couples to have been childhood schoolmates to marry in their 20s or early 30s after college and starting a career.
Just as the Hareidi community is growing, so too is the observant Xtian community….albeit not in the large sinful cities such as NY.CTLAWYER, from a racist point of view, it is simple truth. Joseph is openly racist.
#1 You are NOT an ‘alumni’…………alumni is plural. You are an alumnus, a male who attended Torah Vadaath.
Yes, the belief that Jews are superior to other groups is racist. That does not mean the theory is false. Proclaiming it publicly among non-Jews could subject you to attack and foster hatred of all Jews.
Even if one believes that Jews are G-d’s chosen people and superior to other nations, that does not mean that they have ‘degenerated’ as Joseph so hatefully posted.
Jewish supremacy as a topic was not mentioned before reply #1610349.
Racism is one reason people like Joseph miss the 50s.
@ytvalumNUS
Not everything that involves race is hateful.
In fact using the term racist to refer to Jews is not accurate, Jews are NOT a race, there are Caucasian, Asian, Black Jews that I know. Jews are a people, were once a nation and adhere in different degrees to a religion.Claiming Supremacy is generally hateful speech. Show it in your actions, not in your words.
That definitely depends on whether that nation was chosen for its race. I consider it racist to believe a specific race to be superior or inferior.
That’s still very different to the standard racism that I was referring to.
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