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This topic is bent on discussing the situation in Eretz Yisroel at the moment.
someguy: what situation?
I’m told that there is a huge crisis looming, which stands to literaly devastate millions of people. The quality of schwarma has declined dramatically in the past 18 mos. This is a natioal crisis.
why was this made into a joke. In my humble opinion, a topic can’t get more serious than the matziv in Eretz Yisroel. It’s constantly on my mind…
Let us use the proper English word for this topic: Israel
from what i heard(from people in E”Y/Israel) the matziv is obviously better than it was 2 weeks ago but still, not great.
The proper description is, as the OP put it: Eretz Yisroel. (NOT what the zionists decided to call it.)
Joseph, do you recognize the Jewish sovereignty over any part of what you call “Eretz Yisroel” or are you in the camp with the Iranians who can not tolerate any Jewish sovereignty in the Middle East? What is “OP”?
O riginal P oster.
Opening Post
Josh31,
I am in the camp of the following Gedolim, who (amongst others) “can not tolerate any Jewish sovereignty in the Middle East” (as you put it) prior to the arrival of Moshiach:
Rav Yitzchok Hutner (as a Talmid of Chaim Berlin)
Rav Avigdor Miller (as a Talmid)
The Brisker Rav
The Satmar Rebbe
Rav Elchonon Wasserman
If you need verbatim quotes from these, or other Gedolim, to that effect I would be happy to supply them to you.
Joseph,
As I understand the majority of the Torah leadership of Agudas Yisroel was against the formation of the Jewish State before 1948 and has accepted it as a Fait Accompli (an accomplished fact)afterward. Most likely the opinions of 4 of the 5 leaders you mentioned above were from before 1948.
Fait Accompli example: A couple gets married against our advise and have children. Afterwards we will pray for their happiness and success.
Josh,
No, their (as well as the other Gedolim’s) opposition was post-Statehood (those that were alive post-Statehood.) There were some differences between the Gedolim on how to interact with the State once it existed, but they nevertheless opposed its existance even if they felt it necessary to interact with it in whatever capacity.
(Fait Accompli example: Someone c’v kills a loved one. Afterwards we accept the loved ones death is a Fait Accompli.)
Joseph, I saw on another thread that you wished we had a Sanhedrin. With a Sanhedrin comes a Melech (king). Under a Melech those who refused to serve in the army or those who questioned the legitimacy of the State were dealt with harshly (Mored BeMalchus).
Also, under a Sanhedrin, stringencies desired by a vocal pious minority would be voted down by the majority.
Unfortunately, you and I will never see eye to eye. I see the State of Israel as a birth. Per your comment above, you see it r’l (G-d forbid) as a death.
Josh, Of course! Who doesn’t want a Sanhedrin?? Wanting a Sanhedrin is wanting Moshiach!
And yes Mored BeMalchus is applicable — when we have a Melech again IY’H.
As far as the Sanhedrin vote — that vote only includes members of the Sanhedrin — not the general public opinion.
And it is not I who sees the State as a death. It is the Gedolim.
In general, I have vowed that I will not discuss this matter here anymore – as the positions are stuck in concrete.
However, I cannot allow falsehoods to be printed here.
Joseph writes that Rav hutner zz’l was amongst them who “could not tolerate any Jewish sovereignty over Eretz yisroel in the middle east pre-moshiach”.
he writes “as a talmid of Chaim berlin”.
Well, I too am a talmid of Rav Hutner zz’l and I NEVER EVER heard him say that. Unless joseph can supply actual WRITTEN sources on this irresponsible statement, I will throw this ‘assertion’ in the garbage where it deserves to be.
I cannot vouch for the others although quoting Rav Elchonon is clearly irrelevant as he died in 1941 al kiddush hashem.
The only one that has consistently espoused this view is the Satmarer rebbe zz’l and he is surely a solitary voice.
So- joseph, please supply us with ‘verbatim” quotes from these gedolim that you quoted.
Joseph,
You forgot the Chazon Ish, Tchebiner Rav, Steipler, R’ Shlomo Zalman, R’ Shach, R’ Shteinman, R’ Elyasiv & a hundred others. I guess you just didn’t have koach to type all of them.
Oh, excuse me Josh, did you say something?
Let me know if you need more:
* [The Torah] forbids us to strive for the reunion or possession of the land by any but spiritual means
Rabbi S. R. Hirsch
* Not via our desire did we leave the land of Israel, and not via our power will we come back to the land of Israel.
Rabbi S.D. Schneerson
* [Zionists] want a state in order to make Jews into heretics.
Rabbi C. Soloveichik
* The Zionists have attacked the center point of Judaism.
Rabbi V. Soloveichik
Once before the Neila prayer on Yom Kippur Rabbi Avraham Yoshe Freund of Mansod said:
“It is not because they are Zionists that they are evildoers. It is because they are evildoers that they are Zionists.”
Rabbi Aharon Roth once said:
“It is a miracle that these evildoers don’t command everyone to put on tefillin. It is possible that were they to do it, G-d forbid, it may be forbidden to put them on.”
The Chazon Ish once said:
“If it is hard to understand the whole matter of the Golden Calf, by seeing the matter of the State, one can understand it. The matter of the State is similar to the Golden Calf”
Rabbi Elchonon Wasserman once said:
“It is certain as the sun shines that the Land will vomit the Zionists out, because the Land is the Palace of the King….I don’t say this either to curse or to bless, but because these are things which are written in the Torah and which will take place.”
Rabbi Chaim Soloveitchik once said:
“The Zionists aren’t taking Jews away from Judaism in order to have a State, THEY NEED A STATE IN ORDER TO TAKE JEWS AWAY FROM JUDAISM”
Rabbi Yechezkel Shraga Halberstam once said:
“When a Jew recites ‘Hear O Israel, the Lord your G-d, the Lord is One’ he should have in mind rejecting all idolatry in the world, including Zionism, which is also idolatry.”
Rabbi Yissachar Dov of Belz once said:
” There could be, before the arrival of Mashiach, that the Satan should succeed, and the evildoers should get a State in the Land of Israel. Their state would be a big danger for every Jew in material and spiritual matters.”
The Chafetz Chaim, Rabbi Yisroel Meir Hakohen once said:
“In my opinion it is clear that the Zionists are from the offspring of AMALEK.”
Rabbi Yitzchak Zev Soloveitchik (Reb Velvel) once said:
“How can the little rabbis and heads of yeshivas take upon themselves the determination of things dealing with life and death? It is obvious that the partition will bring with it the anger and hostility of the Arabs and other nations of the world. This whole thing touches on the shedding of blood. HOW DO THEY HAVE THE ARROGANCE TO MAKE JUDGEMENTS DEALING WITH LIFE AND DEATH?
He also said:
“The Agudah is nothing, just money.”
Rabbi Moshe Leib Diskin once said:
“The rabbis of the generation should gather together and issue a writ of excommunication against the Zionists and eject them from the Jewish People, and make decrees against their bread and wine, and to forbid marrying with them, JUST LIKE OUR SAGES DID WITH THE SAMARITANS.”
Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Eherenreich once said:
“The Zionists brought us to the Holocaust. It is well known that it was possible to redeem Jews from the Nazis with money, and save many hundreds of thousands of Jews in Hungary from the fire. THE ZIONIST LEADERS WHO NOW SIT IN GOVERNMENT PREVENTED IT!”
Rabbi Shaul Brach of Kashoa once said:
“Before thinking up the idea of Zionism, Herzl wanted all Jews to convert to Christianity. When he was laughed at, he developed the second idea which was able to have more effect, since thousands of Jews began to believe they could be Jews without the Torah of Judaism.”
“I am also surprised at the leaders of the Agudah who want thousands of Jews to move to Eretz Israel. How can they ignore the welfare of their children, since there is no other place on earth where there is so much heresy and sectarianism as in the Holy Land in our day.”
**********
Reb Elchonon Wasserman, zt’l:
**********
Rabbi Avigdor Miller, zt’l:
In July 1938 President Roosevelt convened the Evian Conference to consider the problem of Jewish refugees. At that time a German offer was made to release Jews at $250 per person. The Jewish Agency, headed by Golda Meir, decided to ignore the offer.
At this conference, the delegation from the Jewish Agency made no effort to influence the United States or any of the 32 other participating nations to open their gates to admit German Jews.
769. It was because European Jews put their trust in atheistic Zionist leaders that these leaders everywhere became the lackeys of the Nazis in all the Ghettos. They were the machinery, which served efficiently in the task of keeping the Jews docile and of persuading and coercing them to be sent off to their deaths. No Torah leader ever cooperated with the Nazis in the destruction machinery.
**********
Rabbi Yitchok Hutner Z”L:
Sadly, even in our own circles, the mold for shaping public opinion lies in the hands of the State of Israel. An appropriate example of this dangerous process of selectively “rewriting” history may be found in the extraordinary purging from the public record of all evidence of the culpability of the forerunners of the State in the tragedy of European Jewry, and the sub-situation in is place of factors inconsequential to the calamity which ultimately occurred.
To cover its own contribution to the final catastrophic events, those of the State in a position to influence public opinion circulated the notorious canard that Gedolet Yisroel were responsible for the destruction of many communities because they did not urge immigration. This charge is, of course, a gross distortion of the truth, and need not be granted more dignity than it deserves by issuing a formal refutation. However, at the same time as the State made certain to include this charge as historical fact in every account of the war years, it successfully sought to omit any mention of its own contribution to the impending tragedy. While the State omitted in its own version of history is the second of the above-mentioned new directions in recent Jewish history. It is that phenomenon which we must now examine.
Rav Chaim Soloveichik of Brisk:
Dear Rabbi Moshe Carpas:
I have also read your words in connection with the sect of the Zionists who are now powerfully banded together. I do not blush to admit that I do not know how to find paths to oppose them.
Seeing that these men are known as evil in their localities, and have already proclaimed their purpose, which is to uproot the fundamentals of our faith, and to take over all Jewish communities to aid them in their plan.
It is hardly credible that after the revelations of their arrogant hearts there should still be found right-minded men willing to ally themselves with them. It is greatly astonishing throughout the whole Jewish People that they should be given a place and a voice in public affairs, since it is known they are causing others to sin.
Let the people guard their souls lest they join them in the destruction of our religion and become an obstacle to the House of Israel.
_____
“The Zionists do not make Jews heretics in order to have a state, they want a state in order to make Jews into heretics!”
_____
“The Jewish people have suffered many (spiritual) plagues — the Sadducees, Karaites, Hellenisers, Shabbatai Zvi, Enlightenment, Reform and many others. But the strongest of them all is Zionism.”
_____
“If you intend to give a coin to the Jewish National Fund, give it to another idolatry, but not to the Zionists, since this idolatry is worse then any other.”
_____
“[Zionists] want a state in order to make Jews into heretics. “
______________________________________
Reb Yitzchok Zev Soloveitchik (the Brisker Rav):
“The Zionists have attacked the center point of Judaism.”
_____
_____
When asked: aren’t we to pray for them, in order they should repent from their evil ways? He replied: three times a day in the prayer against the atheists we pray that they should be destroyed.
Rabbiofberlin,
Your post showed up as I sent in my last one.
Puuuuuulllleeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
If you want to argue hashkafa that’s one thing, but let’s not resort to blatant, outright, pure, 100% BALONEY.
R’ Hutner was a regular chareidi Rosh Hayeshiva who felt EXACTLY the same way as all other Rashei Hayeshiva about the secular Tzioni Reshaim.
There are THOUSANDS of quotes on tape & in print from R’ Miller & the Brisker Rav & every other Gadol under the sun (EVEN RAV PAM!!!) over the last 60 years expessing their disgust, contempt & HATRED (misanecha hashem esneh) for the Reshaim who founded & continue to run the state.
The Satmar Rebbe was only a solitary voice in terms of his approach to the hashkafos of DEALING with the medinah & the hashkafa of why they won their wars.
Rav Yitchok Hutner ZT”L:
Before we explore the second of the new directions in detail, it is important to establish a clear distinction between any common approach to world events and daas Torah — a Torah view of the world, “Public opinion” and any but the Torah approach is by definition colored by outside forces, subjective considerations and the falsehood of secular perspective.
An example of how public opinion can be molded — indeed, warped — at the whim of powerful individuals can be taken from a study of Russian history textbooks published during the respective reigns of Lenin, Stalin and Khrushchev. During each period, the textbooks hail the then-current leader to the exclusion of all his predecessors as the savior of Russia and hero of his people. Undoubtedly, “public opinion” during each period, once children’s minds had been suitably molded, reflected the thinking and wishes of the state. While more subtle in form, this ability to direct public opinion exists in democratic countries as well. Thus, we already pointed out at the beginning that we must make every effort to free ourselves from the powerful grip of public opinion, and must be ever on our guard that our opinions of the true nature of world events will be shaped only by Torah views as seen through Torah eyes.
Sadly, even in our own circles, the mold for shaping public opinion lies in the hands of the State of Israel. An appropriate example of this dangerous process of selectively “rewriting” history may be found in the extraordinary purging from the public record of all evidence of the culpability of the forerunners of the State in the tragedy of European Jewry, and the sub-situation in is place of factors inconsequential to the calamity which ultimately occurred.
To cover its own contribution to the final catastrophic events, those of the State in a position to influence public opinion circulated the notorious canard that Gedolet Yisroel were responsible for the destruction of many communities because they did not urge immigration. This charge is, of course, a gross distortion of the truth, and need not be granted more dignity than it deserves by issuing a formal refutation. However, at the same time as the State made certain to include this charge as historical fact in every account of the war years, it successfully sought to omit any mention of its own contribution to the impending tragedy. While the State omitted in its own version of history is the second of the above-mentioned new directions in recent Jewish history. It is that phenomenon which we must now examine.
“The Jewish Observer”, October, 1977, page 7.
________________________________
For other reasons, too, one must be careful of sudden and popular “awakenings” to different aspects of Jewish history, such as “Holocaust studies.”Nachum Goldmann, head of the only international secular Jewish organization not directly subservient to the Jewish State, has stated that the weakening of sympathy for the State was the result of a lengthy period of time after the Holocaust having passed and the resultant forgetting by the world at large. Undoubtedly, this State, taking advantage of the arbitrary figure of thirty years, sought to reawaken interest in what it now termed the Shoah to regain some of that lost sympathy of the late 40’s and 50’s.
“The Jewish Observer”, October, 1977, page 9.
Fait Accompli example: A couple gets married against our advise and have children. Afterwards we will pray for their happiness and success.
BS”D
A Jew goes off the path and marries a non-Jewish woman despite all of our efforts to stop the intermarriage.
We daven day and night and do whatever we can so that either the non-Jewish partner becomes a ger tzedek and the children convert (the equivalent of the medine electing, if not a frum government, at least a government that is proudly Jewish and will uphold Jewish values, defend our mekoimois kedoishim, and cease to cause anti-Semitism throughout the world by its incompetent actions and lack of ability to either wage a decisive war or make a decisive peace).
Alternately, we do what we can so that the marriage breaks up (in this case we daven for the peaceful dissolution of the medine so that, as Aguda really wanted, Jews would have rights to have Torah communities, access to mekoimois hakedoishim, but no sovereignty). We tell the non-Jewish partner that she is not ours and we will not tolerate the way she has corrupted a pure Jew (the medine vs the Jewish people) but we cannot kill the non-Jewish partner or cause her any harm.
Since neither in the case of the hypothetical marriage nor in the case of the medine will this happen al pi teva, we daven for Moshiach to come and replace the memsheles zadoin with Malchus Beis Dovid, all the while trying to ensure, by whatever means necessary including dealing with and in a way subverting the corrupt structures of the medine (Aguda of today, Chabad), that no further physical or spiritual damage is caused by the medine.
This present state has NO sanhedrin and no kedusha. Those who serve in its army do indeed protect their fellow Jews, but the reason the army has not been wiped out is ONLY because of the Torah life which goes on in E”Y DESPITE the best efforts of the medine. The failures of 1973 and Lebanon and the recent cowardly surrender in Aza should make that clear by now.
Joseph and notpashut are engaged in the proverbial three monte game…..trying to obfuscate the issue and trying to distract the gullible reader from the question at hand.
Joseph clearly stated (look it up)that Rav Hutner zz’l “could not tolerate any Jewish sovereignity over Eretz Yisroel in the Middle east pre-moshiach”. There is not a scintilla of evidence that Rav Hutner held that view. Joseph borught down a long article on the holocaust and Rav Hutner’s views on that. Totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
But then, when you are totally blinded by your own obuseness, facts don’t mean much. Or, worse, you twist facts to suit yoru own prejudices, a la Izik.
And, in case you want to look it up, al lthe wonderfu lquotations that Joseph brigns down come straight from the website of ‘neturei karta” ( look it up)
Somehow, I doubt whether many of our yidden want to be associated with a group of peole who lend their miserable hand to Iran and Arabs, who are our mortal enemies.
notpashut- there you go again…..quoting thousands of tapes on …what? that the chareidi olam was not happy with the leaders of the medinah? what a big surprise….so are many hundrds of thousands of jews who live in Eretz Yisroe and regularly vote for other parties…this is a very, very ,very long cry from asserting that there should be no Jewish sovereignity in Eretz Yisroel…..
As I have said many times, you all have a right to your opinions….and I and others have a right to our opinions. You cannot make your opinions as fact. Time will surely tell who is right.
I must ,however, reserve my utter disgust for itzik. The scenario he depicts is a second Holocaust and a third churban. Enough said.
I have been told by several people (one of them a close talmid of Rav Shach, zatzal, now a well known Rosh Yeshiva but I don’t want to mention his name without his permission) that Rav Shach, zatzal, said that l’shita he agreed with the Satmar Rav a hundred percent, just that he felt that l’maaseh it was impossible to follow it in the present time. The Brisker Rav and his children went further and opposed any form of participation in the Medina, including taking any kind of money for Torah education.
Concerning Rav Hutner, zatzal, in an article in the Jewish Observer of Oct 77 (written by Rabbi Yaakov Feitman based on talks by Rav Hutner) he placed a lot of blame for the Holocaust very directly on the Zionist movement. To say that quoting R’ Elchonon, zatzukel, is irrelevant because he was niftar before the Medina is to my mind questionable. R’ Elchonon writes in print (Kovetz Maamarim) that the leadership of the Zionist movement were Amalekim no less than the Yevsektsia in Stalinist Russia and that the Land will inevitably vomit them out. His son R’ Simcha, zatzal, refused to join calls to participate in elections in spite of great pressure that was put on him to do so (and himself always made a point of being abroad during elections). IMHO the burden of proof rests on someone who would claim that R’ Elchonon would have changed his opinion once the medina came into existence, would he have held that the spiritual forces of Amalek would have abandoned the movement once it became a medina? Concerning the Satmar Rav, even if he was a “solitary voice” (which is far from the case), he enjoyed enormous respect from all the gedolim for his unshakeable honesty, courage and kedusha, in spite of the ferocity with which he opposed them on many issues. One last point, even though for many people on both sides of these questions the questions have indeed become “stuck in concrete”, I don’t think that excuses reasonable people from attempting to carry on reasoned discussion of the issues in an attempt to ascertain the truth of the Torah as seen by gedolim.
por- a quick reply to your post. Rav Hutner’s words were about the Holocaust, not the medinah. He actually lived there the last years of his life.
As far as R’Elchonon goes, no one knows what he would have thought would he have remained alive, especially if he would have been able to go live in Eretz Yisroel and prosper there again. But, equally, you cannot bring an actula “rayoh’ from his words to the contrary. This is why I said that what he wrote is irrelevant to the actual facts of the medinah. There is no burden of proof on anyone. he said what he said way before the Holocaust and the founding of the medinah.
The fact that the Satmarer rebbe earned enormous respct is neither here nor there. Rav Kook and Rav Sonnenschein and the Gerrer rebbe were very respectful of each other. Neither agreed with the other’s hashkafa.
on my previous post: ‘erratum” instead of Rav sonnenschein ,I, of course, meant Rav Sonnenfeld zz’l.
I have been told by several people (one of them a close talmid of Rav Shach, zatzal, now a well known Rosh Yeshiva but I don’t want to mention his name without his permission) that Rav Shach, zatzal, said that l’shita he agreed with the Satmar Rav a hundred percent, just that he felt that l’maaseh it was impossible to follow it in the present time.
BS”D
Which, surprisingly is not far from a known quote of the Lubavitcher Rebbe ZYA regarding either Satmar, the real NK or both. The Rebbe said that if the kanoim were not out there doing what they did, he would have to do it (implying that this would jeopardize the work Chabad does with victims of the medine going back to accepting bochurim from the infamous maabarot into Tomchei Tmimim at the time of the mass aliya from Teiman and Morocco and thereby saving them from the forced secularization at the hands of none other than Yossi Sarid’s father OLBM at the behest of Mapai). When Torah askonim of any community are dealing with the medine, they are doing so to save Jews and to preserve Torah uMitzvos in E”Y; they are NOT recognizing that the medine has legitimacy or chas vesholom holiness, rather that it happens to control E”Y in these dark days of golus and that not one Jew can be left behind.
The Ku Klutz Kartel are wrong in that they:
1) Demonstrate against the medine along with terror supporters, in ways that encourage anti-Semites including dangerous ones. The Satmar Rov (Reb Yoilish ZYA) pointed out that for non-Jews, being against the medine is being against Jews. When we protest, it is one thing to protest anti-Torah policies and another thing to call for the destruction of the medine and claiming it should be replaced with an Arab state. The successor to the memsheles zadoin is NOT HAMAS or FATAH chas vesholom. It is malchus beis Dovid, and if dealing with the corrupt medine brings one Jew one step closer to Torah then it has to be done – but by professional askonim who do not get swayed or corrupted themselves. (I know that this is not always the case and that is why the Satmar shita of no engagement whatsoever is very admirable but not always practical or recommended for everyone).
2) Engage in dialogue with and support for our mortal enemies, enabling themselves to be used by same.
I studied for 4 years in a Haredei Mesivta (Ner Israel) many years ago, but I can not recall such intensive hatred for the Medina that I hear coming from Joseph, notpashut and now Itzik_s. Gentlemen, study the Gemara in Gittin that is studied on Tisha B’av. There is a huge difference between Jewish sinners and the evil of non-Jewish despots.
Those who have a much more positive view of the State also have Torah leaders to rely upon. However, these Torah leaders are considered as naught in the eyes of the right wing hardliners.
In this coffee room, the moderates always show a generally higher level of Torah scholarship than the hardliners. Knowing what is Biblical, what is Rabbinic or just a custom counts. Being able to quote from the Neturei Karta web site (probably partially underwritten by Iran) does not.
I think that many of the more strident views that have been posted, tend to be posted by people who forget that the rabbonim whom they quote were not necessarily issuing piskei halacha on the subject of Medinat Yisroel. It is one thing to quote Rav Hutner, or some other rov when they are expressing what amounts to their personal opinion, regarding the government of Israel. It is quite another to insist that these opinions which are being expressed = a p’sak. Did any of the rabbonim say one is not permitted to go back to E”Y? If so, then the people who followed that rov should by all means refrain from returning to E”Y. But the truth is, there has always been a continuous Jewish presence in E”Y even throughout the goluyos, and it would be irresponsible for a rov to take it upon himself to decide that this cannot be. If Hashem truly did not want the medina to stand, it wouldn’t. The fact that miracle after miracle has occurred and we Jews have been zocheh to see those miracles in our time, should be sufficient proof to even diehard anti-Zionists that maybe Hashem sees things differently than they do, kivyachol. The Neturei Karta think they are tzadikim, when the chillulei Hashem that they commit in their misguided belief that they are earning Olam Haba, go beyond the pale. I will not demean myself by calling them what they deserve to be called, for aligning themselves in a public way with our worst enemies. There is a din v’cheshbon, and after 120 years none of escapes it.
I must ,however, reserve my utter disgust for itzik. The scenario he depicts is a second Holocaust and a third churban. Enough said.
BS”D
Please see a qualified learning specialist. You cannot seriously believe that the replacement of the corrupt medine by malchus beis Dovid, which is the wish of every Jew INCLUDING those who follow in the way of Rav Kook, is a second Holocaust and a third Churban. Had you READ what I WROTE you would see I was discussing two scenarios that are purely HYPOTHETICAL before making it clear that like all anti-Zionists who are not of the Ku Klutz Kartel variety,
I believe that ONLY Moshiach can now supplant the medine – but unlike the Zionists I do not wish for it to succeed but rather for Jews living in E”Y to be safe and prosper. We ALL know the medine is failing us in that respect and that only its becoming a truly Jewish state, which is impossible without Moshiach, will allow for “yisroel yishkon lavetach”.
I also realize that every Jew must be brought closer to Hashem and if dealing with the corrupt medine, a/k/a going deep into the mud, to make sure one more Jew has a Torah education, so that there is one less customer for the pork store that is open on Shabbos and one less potential mate for Elena whose mother is not Jewish even if some halfwit Sochnut shaliach changed her name to Elanit when he pushed through her emigration, is what is necessary then so be it so long as it is professional askonim backed by daas Torah who are engaging with the corrupt and unholy medine for the sake of klal Yisroel.
The Rav zt”l said it the the best when he decided to leave the Agudah and join the Mizrachi. He said that gedolim of the Agudah repreented the glorious but fading Jewish past. The Mizrachi represented the Jewish future. My take on his words is as follows: Indeed in those days the great rabbis were part of the mature and aged past. But every era has its apotheosis and then its inevitable decline into obscurity. Those great and venerable rabbanim who opposed the clear manifestation of our future as a people did so becuase they were mired in the old ways. Indeed precisely becuase the Mizrachi was in its infancy and is still but a “babe in arms” as far as Jewish history goes, it cannot boast a roster of rabbinic greats among its ranks. But like every promising young child it’s potential is manifest to all who are willing to consider it. The Rav zt”l was such a person. He saw the future and alligned himself with it. History has shown that pioneers were always ridiculed and even vilified in their days. But eventually their views came to be conventional wisdom, and their clairvoyance the stuff of legends. I only pray that i live long enough to see that happen to the Rav and those who walked with him.
josh: Where do you get the audacity to tell Gedolei Yisroel that their statements regarding zionism is hateful? What pedastal do you situate yourself on prior to lecturing the Gedolim?
Like notpashut said: There are THOUSANDS of quotes on tape & in print from R’ Miller & the Brisker Rav & every other Gadol under the sun (EVEN RAV PAM!!!) over the last 60 years expessing their disgust, contempt & HATRED (misanecha hashem esneh) for the Reshaim who founded & continue to run the state.
And btw the quotes of the Gedolim above do NOT come from neteurei karta’s site. Go to their site, and you will not find it there. (look it up.)
oomis1105: The issue here is NOT living or traveling to Eretz Yisroel. It is Jewish sovereignty. And the Gedolim have issued PSAK halacha that it is assur; not just their personal opinions.
mods, you definitely do not have to post this one, you decide. ive read through the posts on eretz yisroel, alot of pointing fingers at each one. i don’t know why i always turn to humor ,maybe it’s my way to stop such heated conversations, but wouldn’t it be funny if the rabbiofberlin and joseph become mechutonim one day?? you never know!!
?’ ?????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ??? ?????? ???? ????.
The three verses are:
I adjure you, O daughters of Jerusalem, by the gazelles, and by the hinds of the field, that ye awaken not, nor stir up love, until it please (Song of Songs 2:7).
I adjure you, O daughters of Jerusalem, by the gazelles, and by the hinds of the field, that ye awaken not, nor stir up love, until it please (Song of Songs 3:5).
I adjure you, O daughters of Jerusalem: Why should ye awaken, or stir up love, until it please? (Song of Songs 8:4).
There are several other Midrashim that pertain to the Three Oaths and they are primarily recorded in Shir ha-Shirim Rabbah which is also known as Midrash Hazita:
, and the nations swore that they would not overly burden Israel, for by doing so they cause the end of days to come prematurely.
Rabbi Chelbo says…And do not ascend like a wall from the Exile. If so, why is the King Messiah coming? To gather the exiles of Israel.
When Reish Lakish would see Jews from the Exile gathering in the marketplace [in the Land of Israel] he would say to them, ‘Scatter yourselves.’ He said to them: ‘When you ascended you did not do so as a wall, and here you have come to make a wall.’ [7]There are several other Midrashim that pertain to the Three Oaths and they are primarily recorded in Shir ha-Shirim Rabbah which is also known as Midrash Hazita:
, and the nations swore that they would not overly burden Israel, for by doing so they cause the end of days to come prematurely.
Rabbi Chelbo says…And do not ascend like a wall from the Exile. If so, why is the King Messiah coming? To gather the exiles of Israel.
When Reish Lakish would see Jews from the Exile gathering in the marketplace [in the Land of Israel] he would say to them, ‘Scatter yourselves.’ He said to them: ‘When you ascended you did not do so as a wall, and here you have come to make a wall.’
Rambam cited the Three Oaths in his famous Iggeres Teiman:
???? ???? ???? ?”? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??????? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ??????? ???
Shlomo Hamelech, of blessed memory, foresaw with Divine inspiration, that the prolonged duration of the exile would incite some of our people to seek to terminate it before the appointed time, and as a consequence they would perish or meet with disaster. Therefore he admonished and adjured them in metaphorical language to desist, as we read, “I adjure you, O daughters of Jerusalem, by the gazelles and by the hinds of the field, that ye awaken not, nor stir up love, until it please.” (Song of Songs 2:7, 8:4). Now, brethren and friends, abide by the oath, and stir not up love until it please (Kesubos 111a).
Ramban did not explicitly discuss the Three Oaths. Rashbash who was himself a descendant of Ramban, understood this particular biblical obligation to be binding on the individual level but not on the collective:
“In truth, this commandment is not a commandment which includes the entirety of Israel in the Exile which now exists, but it is a general principle as our Sages stated in the Talmud in Ketubos, that it stems from the Oaths which The Holy One, Blessed be He, made Israel swear not to rush the End, and not to ascend like a wall.” (Responsa Rashbash, 2)
Rabbeinu Bachya, formulated a comprehensive Torah commentary based on the four principles denoted by the word “PaRDeS.” In his commentary he wrote on Genesis 32:7 :
Maharal discussed the Three Oaths in Netzach Yisrael:
?? ????? ‘????? ?? ???’ ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???, ???? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ???, ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????. ?? ???? ?? ???, ?? ?? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?????, ?? ??? ?????. ???? ????? ‘????? ?? ???’, ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???, ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???. ??? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ????, ??? ????? ??
[the Exile] nor will they change their behavior in this manner.
The oaths are between the Jewish people and God, and the gentiles and God respectively. Theoretically, if the gentiles would violate their oath does not tacitly mean that the Jewish people are free to do so as well. Historically, atrocities prior to the Holocaust have not prompted claims of violating the oaths by the gentiles.
BS”D
However, we see that the Aguda has adapted itself well enough to the reality of life in the modern world that it indeed is the future and while Rav Soloveichik’s way is chas vesholom not the past, many of the children of his followers are moving closer to the Aguda in terms of hashkafah and practice.
And when Rav Kook’s followers protest the unraveling of their once hallowed dream by singing Reb Amram Bloy’s once almost notorious Hashem Hu Malkeinu (once known only as Hashem Hi Malkynee), that hitherto was mostly a Purimdige niggun in their circles and just about everywhere else, I think we know which way the arrows are pointing.
My Hashem Hu Malkeinu ringtone is not the narrishkeit of the ragtag Ku Klux Kartel singing off tune in a grotesque pronunciation that sounds like me singing who knows what words to “Gelt” on Purim; it is recorded in perfect modern Ivrit by Ariel Zilber, a former paratrooper and erstwhile secular recording star who saw the light after Gush Katif.
Hmm..strange hashgocho protis – no sooner was I ready to hit Send Post than Toker started to play….Gelt. What words should I write this year…….let’s see what happens in the elections and who sells out for a bissel nisht kusher GELT!
RoB,
I can not argue with someone who closes their eyes & ears to reality. As I said before, if you want to have a discussion with you defending R’ Kook’s position & me defending (not that they need my defence) the position of all other Gedolim – that’s fine.
But your attempt to rewrite history makes me wonder if perhaps you have not yet put away our Slivovitz from Channukah. 🙂
BTW, I have no idea what upset you so in Itzik’s post.
Josh,
“I studied for 4 years in a Haredei Mesivta (Ner Israel) many years ago, but I can not recall such intensive hatred for the Medina that I hear coming from Joseph, notpashut and now Itzik”
B”H, that probably means you were too busy learning. R’ Aharon Feldman actually has some of the most “hardline” feelings on our subject.
“There is a huge difference between Jewish sinners and the evil of non-Jewish despots.”
I don’t know why you think I should listen to your opinion over the likes of the Chazon Ish & R’ Shteinman.
cantoresq,
“The Rav zt”l said it the the best when he decided to leave the Agudah and join the Mizrachi. He said that gedolim of the Agudah repreented the glorious but fading Jewish past.”
With all due respect to R’ Soloveitchik Ztz”l, anyone who doesn’t now see that the Mizrachi movement is dying a quick death while the glorious tradition of chareidi jewry is growing by leaps & bounds is either living in a cave or in Bellvue.
All the other Gedolim have been proven correct.
Now, a word to all you people who are either totally uneducated or so pretend to be, who attempt to frighten the masses by invoking the dreaded name “Niturai Karta” & associating it with any anti zionist statement.
I’ll be dan lekaf zchus & assume that you really didn’t know this, but for your information the Chazon Ish, Brisker Rav, Tchebiner Rav, R’ Isser Zalman, R’ Zalman Sorotzkin, R’ Chatzkel Abramsky, The Gerrer Rebbes, The Steipler, R’ Shach Yibdl”ch R’ Elyashiv, R’ Shteinman etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. have nothing to do with the niturai karta, don’t support the niturai karta, & frankly think that (at least the modern day version) they are a bunch of whacked out, dangerous nutcases.
Two quick stories about the Niturai Karta once we are on the subject.
R’ Amram Bloi (who was the founder & actually a big Tzaddik & very choshuve yid) once organized & attended a protest of some sort against the Medina.
The next time the Brisker Rav saw him, (after he had almost been beaten to death & been released from jail) the Rav said to him “R’ Amram – you’re a Tzioni!” R’ Amram looked at him in shock (no greater insult than that) & the Rav again said to him “R’ Amram – you’re a Tzioni!”
He than explained “Even according to you, protesting is not yeharaig v’al ya’avor, therefore, by definition, if you DO protest, it’s because you believe that the Tzionim won’t kill you. If you’re naive enough to believe that, then you’re a Tzioni yourself.”
The Chazon Ish once commented “The Neturai Karta are Yidden, but they’re Yidden from before Matan Torah.” He then explained that being that they listen to themselves & not the Torah, they must be from before Matan Torah.
BTW, since RoB doesn’t believe anything without a source (& even then it depends what it says) you can find these tidbits (& many other good ones) in the book “Bimchitzasam” by R’ Shlomo Lorincz. The quote from R’ Yakov Emden I heard on a tape from R’ Reisman.
And if you want to see some real good anti zionist venom why don’t you check out the book about the well known right wing intolerant radical, flag burning, stone throwing, hatred spewing…. RAV PAM!
RoB,
I almost forgot, for more anti-zionist rhetoric which you can see for yourself, you can check out Hanoch Teller’s book about that other extremist, inflexible, sinas chinam promoting “gadol”…R’ SHLOMO ZALMAN AUERBACH!
Since we have seen in the past that not everyone in the CR (myself included) always recognizes the TONE of each comment, for the record, for those who didn’t realize, my last two blurbs about R’ Pam & R’ Shlomo Zalman were SARCASTIC. (Although accurate)
My point merely is that everyone throwing out their stupid “Niturei Karta” comment after each post of Joseph, myself, Will Hill, por & Itzik should please come up with something a little more accurate, relevant or worth discussing.
I am glad to know R’ Miller’s opinion on this. To me this is dispicable – there were plenty of rabbonim in Europe who told their congregants to stay, rather than flee. Does that mean those rabbonim are responsible for the death of their congregants? The NAZIS and their collaborators are responsible.
There has not been one holocaust survivor that I spoke to (when discussing this topic) that didnt admit they felt guilty for not doing more for their mother/father/brother/sister/relative/friend/enemy.
The zionists are the ones who saved my grandfather – and one who saves a life, its as if he saved the whole world.
Are there problems with Zionism? Sure. What doesnt have problems? But this extreme hatred seems ridiculous.
cantoresq,
“The Rav zt”l said it the the best when he decided to leave the Agudah and join the Mizrachi. He said that gedolim of the Agudah repreented the glorious but fading Jewish past.”
With all due respect to R’ Soloveitchik Ztz”l, anyone who doesn’t now see that the Mizrachi movement is dying a quick death while the glorious tradition of chareidi jewry is growing by leaps & bounds is either living in a cave or in Bellvue.
All the other Gedolim have been proven correct.
_______________________________________________________________________________________
1. Let’s see how well that glorious tradition weathers the current economic crisis. I’ve heard of kollelim unable to pay the avreichim. People are starving as a result of that “glorious tradition.” 2. In what way is religious Zionism dying? As far as I can tell it’s thriving. Hesder yeshivot continue to flourish. As opposed to the daily appeals I get from this chareidi mossad or that chareidi kollel, I have yet to hear of a single dati leumi institution suffering in this economy. Other institutions associated with religious zionism like Bar Ilan University are doing well, enrollments are up. The Dati Leumi community continues to produce high level scholarship from places like the Mossad Harav Kook, Machon Meir, Zomet etc. Where is the quick death to which you allude?
Sjs,
Your post was WAY out of line.
First of all read a few more books, like maybe Perfidy by Ben Hecht.
The Rabbonim who told their congregants to stay were trying to do the best thing they could & all they cared about was saving Jewish lives.
The Zionist RESHAIM had numerous oppurtunities to save HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Jewish lives (particularly from Hungary) but bypassed them in favor of political ideals.
Yitchak Rabin shot down a boat FULL OF JEWS to insure his group gaining control of the new country & not Begin.
Ben-Gurion & his crew SHOT & KILLED IN COLD BLOOD IN MIDDLE OF RECHOV YAFFO Dr. Dahan, who under the direction of R’ Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld had been negotiating a peace treaty with King Abdullah. They killed him to insure their political survival.
Sjs,
These people were & are people who are MURDERERS.
This extreme hatred is not “ridiculous” – It is a passuk in Tehillim.
?????? ?’ ????, ????? ???? ???????
BS”D
Also, there were very few visas available to Mandate Palestine; the debate over the rabbonim who told their followers to stay is almost moot as there was nowhere for them to go after the Evian Conference.
There indeed were abuses of the visa process by the Labor Zionists and unbelievably callous quotes which showed that their priority was to build a state for their own egos and ideologies at any human cost. I can’t even post them here; they are worse than obscenities.
Bar-Ilan has attracted more and more secular students; it is not a successful institution as far as any sort of Torah values are concerned. It is not the YU of E”Y, but rather a “Jew-ish” Brandeis with a small kipa.
And the reason you do not get appeals from Zionist institutions in EY is that they are government controlled, sponsored and (overtly or covertly) monitored.
In the end, the economic crisis will be a nightmare for secular and religious Zionists alike as charedim enter the mainstream workforce and excel as we do in other countries. The failure to do so in E”Y has to do with politics and it indeed cannot stay that way.
And if there is an alternative service bill, then what you will see is 100 more Yad Sarahs and Ezer MiTzions and Migdal Ohrs that serve every sector of society and will end up bringing charedim even further into the mainstream. (That is why it is the medine that does not want charedim serving in any way; my friends who ended up leaving E”Y for Chabad shlichus abroad would have been a threat to the secularizing nature of the army and the last thing the medine wants is these guys manning social service organizations all over the country and spreading Yiddishkeit as they go along).
cantoresq,
Hmmmmmm…the mafdal party – whoops – sorry I forgot, it doesn’t exist anymore. Four dati-leumi parties COMBINED are expected to get THREE seats tommorow.
The chareidi parties have grown with every election & chareidim are projected to be the majority of every major city within 10-20 years.
Yeshivos are bursting at the seams & Torah is everywhere.
“As opposed to the daily appeals I get from this chareidi mossad or that chareidi kollel, I have yet to hear of a single dati leumi institution suffering in this economy.”
The chareidim are suffering financially BECAUSE they are thriving.
The Mizrachi have no financial trouble BECAUSE they are dying.
1) The Agudah voted for the Peel Commission.
2) R’ Elyashiv served on the Rabbanut. Will that be edited out from his hagiography?
Notpashut, R’ Wasserman was offered several times visas for himself and his talmidim to stay in the US, and not just in YU, Torah Vodas offered visas as well. He refused and he, and his talmidim died. The same can be said for many other rebbes and roshei yeshivahs who told their talmidim to stay. Let’s not rewrite history and place all the blame on the Zionists.
BTW, I can see why some people would not want to pay $250. IIRC, there are actual halachic shailas with this.
BS”D
How can anyone support a state that does not support itself and surrenders the land it is meant to protect while it endangers the inhabitants thereof and Jews throughout the world?
What have Rav Kook’s people done for the society of the medine except trying to blend in? I remember very well how a certain politician from Mafdal would go out of his way to make it miserable for those who observe shmita properly because HE believed in the heter mechira. And Rav Kook called America “ama reka”; have his followers done anything to stop the dependence of the medine on American goodwill that can easily run out at times like this?
If tomorrow, the medine elects a government that, while not being Torah true (that can come only with Moshiach) has the guts to say: “We will stand alone if we have to but we will do what is necessary to preserve the safety of the JEWISH people in the Land!” then I might feel differently. But Begin did not do that, neither did Shamir and neither did Bibi. That is because, by definition, a non Torah state cannot succeed in E”Y and must be replaced with a Torah state.
At this stage in history, that can only happen with Moshiach. The medine is the antithesis of Moshiach; it was founded to turn the Jews into a nation like all other nations. The novi says: od teshvu zkenim uzkeinois birchoivois Yerushalayim. Zionism has achieved, as Herzl YMS* and Ben-Gurion OLBM wanted: od teshvu POSHIM ve Z**OT birchovot Yerushalayim (ve’nashim belaylot lo telchu merov pachadim) – in short they have turned kedusha into klipa and light into darkness.
* The reason not to say YMS after a Jew’s name is that you do not want his family line to be wiped out as they can do tshuva. Herzl has no family line; all of his descendants met bad ends and one son was a meshumad. I therefore have no problem saying Herzl YMS though I rarely find him worth discussing. He suffered from delusions caused by a very ignoble infection that spread to his brain and these delusions are evident in his thoughts and writing. OLBM = “Of Less than Blessed Memory” or zechuso yagen – lo aleinu!.
i will not enter in another fruitless debate about the medinah. As i sadi earlier, the positions are set in concrete. I will, however, answer the questions addressed to me personally.
To itzik- you hide behind the platitudes of “praying for malchus bais dovid so that the charedim should live peacefully, have access to mekomos hakedoshim..etc…’ Yeah, and chazerfislech will fly. Any dissolution of the medina woill be a real second holocaust and a third churban. You clothe your words in unctuous words but you live in a fantasy world to think that there could ber a “peaceful” dissolution of the medinah.
Hence, my contempt. (including the fact that you masquerade as a Lubavitcher, whereas no other Lubavitcher EVER says these things)
notpashut- when someone does not have the better of an argument,one resorts to invective and insults, which is what you have been doing on this matter here. I will challenge you to show me IN WRITING where Rav Pam zz’l or R’ Shlomo Zalman zz’l ever used the words you use against the evil “tsionim”. I will make it my duty to go to any seforim store and look up the quotations, as I did with a previous quote by R’Aharon zz’l.
To say that I am closing my eyes against reality is truly breathtaking in its temerity. The Agudah has stagnated and has had the SAME amount of chavrei knesset for SIXTY years now and whether you like it or not, the agenda of Rav Kook and the religious zionists is the one that has triumphed and GROWN in these past thirty years. The army is now full of religious soldiers- certainly what we alweays hoped for and the WHOLE land of israel is now being built upon, not only Bnai Berak,as has been prophesied by our nevi’im.Tomorrow’s elections will continue the strength of the vision of Rav Kook.
SO, put this in your pipe and smoke it..or maybe something other than tobacco…
All these promises that the chareidim will be the majority is only a pipe dream because- very simply- many chareidim don’t even vote for the agudah! They know, in their hearts,who is right.
And, by the way, Shlomo Lorincz would be the last one that I would believe for anything..but, nonetheless, the quote from the Chazon Ish i don’t understand and the story of R”Velvel is nothing new.A single swallow the srping does not make…
Yet, after all this, I admire and salute you,notpashut, for living in Israel and having that zechus. For that, you are way better than me.
itzik, i think i’m right in saying that most of rav kook’s followers aren’t really following his shitta. he wouldn’t agree with half the things they say and do. but rav kook himself was a great man and even though he had a lot of opposition, you can’t say he wasn’t chashuv.
(miraculously, all the posts that bring in rav kook disappeared… lets see if this one makes it.)
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