Enough with the yiddish already

Google translate translated aunt as momma again for me. Maybe it knows yiddish is not my primary (secondary) language and figures it can get away with anything.

APY – I asked Google translate to translate aunt and I get ???? – This is not momma – it’s mumme – which is a second translation for the word aunt just like tante. The vav does not sound like an o in Yiddish it’s either an oi because of the ashkenazik pronunciation or an oo for a shuruk. And the ayin takes an eh sound not an ah sound – that would be an aleph.

mdd -“Health, if you want to hold that 2+2=5, you are welcome to do it. No matter what we say to you, you won’t agree. If it advances the cause of anti-Zionism to say that we all live on the Moon, you won’t have a problem with it.”

MDD, if you want to hold that 2+2=5, you are welcome to do it. No matter what we say to you, you won’t agree. If it advances the cause of Zionism to say that we all live on the Moon or Uganda, you won’t have a problem with it.

The truth hurts – doesn’t it?

MDG – “Shairootim means servicies, or as I would translate it in this case “facilities”. You might say to someone in English, “I need to to use the facilities.” It’s just another way to refer to the “Bais Hakeesay””

So you’re agreeing with me that it wasn’t a good example because it’s slang? You are trying to make it sound like I’m wrong somehow. Also, the Rambam uses the word Taalis -so this word wasn’t made up recently by some Koifer. So there is no comparison to something like “Dayog”.

I did some research into these languages. Did you know they had this argument in Europe which language should be the Jewish language -Yiddish or Ivrit?

Let me tell you about this guy Ben -Yehuda -he just wasn’t a non-religious guy -he was Anti-religion. He started out as a Frum kid -became a Maskil -then a Zionist.

It seems he wanted a language that people in the street could speak, not just learned Chachomim. This I don’t understand -why can’t they speak LK? So I think he made a language to mock LK. That’s why he decided to put the Sefardi pronunciation to it -to make fun of it (LK). If my hunch is correct, it might be Ossur or definitely preferable Not to speak Ivrit. Some say people who know Ivrit before they learn Torah don’t get the proper meaning of what the Torah means because of the different meanings of Ivrit. When Teddy H. liked the English (British) idea of the Jewish homeland in Uganda, Ben-Yehuda was all for it. I guess this kind of proves he wanted nothing to do with Kedusha. So his language is No offshoot of Kedusha -it had to me mocking the holy language (LK).

Now back to Europe -the Zionists started pushing their Hebrew (Ivrit) there and a lot of Jews didn’t like it. A bunch of Non-Frum intellectual Jews got together in Vilna in the 20’s to counter act this. They started an org. called YIVO to push Yiddish as the Jewish language.

So I should be worse than a bunch of Freye Yidden who saw through what the Tzionim were doing with this Ivrit, and speak this ridiculous language?

Health said about Ben-Yehuda: “So I think he made a language to mock LK. That’s why he decided to put the Sefardi pronunciation to it -to make fun of it (LK). “

I think that he understood that the Sefardi pronunciation was more correct.

I know he was a kofer, but that does not invalidate everything that he did.

“Rambam uses the word Taalis -so this word wasn’t made up recently by some Koifer. So there is no comparison to something like “Dayog”. “

Tallis was not a Hebrew word (at least not in the Tanakh) and became incorporated at some point. Other words came into Hebrew like Sanhedrin, Gematria, and other Greek words. Do you say that since the Ancient Greeks were depraved pagans that we cannot use their words?

Dayag reminds me of Dayan. A dayag works with dag and a dayan works with din. Is it the exact same rule? I don’t think so, but close enough. Could it have been better? Maybe, but that’s a moot point now.

“So you’re agreeing with me that it wasn’t a good example because it’s slang? You are trying to make it sound like I’m wrong somehow. “

It seems to me that you want to harshly criticize, which is based on Sinat Chinam, and that is wrong. I’m just trying to dan l’chaf zechut.

Health, I just looked it up and while sevral letters are similar there are many that are totally different – and the Bosnians, being Moslems, use the Arabic alphabet. Unfortunately, for some reason it does not copy but you can look it up again.

As for Yiddish the Wikipedia says:

“The Ashkenazi pronunciation is more correct. “

With accents, Ashkenazim very often mispronounce them. Pick up a Chumash and see where the accents are based on the Taamim. One on my Rebbis pointed out that misplacing the accent, like in the word viAhavTAH in k’riat shema, can change the meaning. Saying viaHAVtah changes the meaning and one may not be yotsai K”Sh (he was not sure though).

The “Sav” (Tav w/o a dagesh) comes from a different part of the mouth (palette) than the S,Z, and Sh sounds (teeth). See the Mishnat HaGR”A or Lishon Chayim. OTOH, I don’t think that it’s sound is a hard “T” like in modern Hebrew, but still the “T” sound is from the right part of the mouth.

wow!!!

“So I think he made a language to mock LK. That’s why he decided to put the Sefardi pronunciation to it -to make fun of it (LK)”

Now we know that Jews should use the ashkenazi pronunication for Ivrit, must tell that to all my jerusalemite family. Forget Jerusalem the city of David and look forward to Vilna, Riga, Warsaw, Kiev, where yiddish was embraced and spoken so beautifully. Of course Yiddish is spoken by many Jews and quite right too, it is part of my heritage too, but I can sense a prejudice towards those whose kith and Kin do not hail from the lands of mama loshen.

Even that most extreme anti-zionist creature, the repugnant Meir Hirsh so recently featured on YWN praising our enemies spoke Ivrit with the correct modern Sefardi pronuciation. He actually spoke beautiful Ivrit but of course the content was grotesque and nauseating, well at least for some of us.

MDG: Dayag and Dayan come from the exact same root. In fact, most jobs can be described in the same way. Take a noun or a verb, put a Patach under the first letter and a Kamatz (with a Dagesh) in the second. This is common through Mishnaic Hebrew. All Ben Yegudah did was standardize that.

And R’ Schachter quotes a Maharil that we are not Mapkid on Mil’eil and Mil’rah even where it changes the meaning. I think, however, that this is a Limud Z’chus at best. I have long thought that someone who habitually messes up Mil’eils and Mil’ras is only Yotzei as a Loez and not as a Korei B’lashon Hakodesh.

Josh31 -“What we have now are Sephardic Charedim, Dati-im and a huge number of Jews in Israel who were raised with very little religion. The language needed to reach out to them is Hebrew, not Yiddish.”

You can reach out to them with Loshon Hakodesh, you don’t need the Treif language Ivrit.

Sam -“All Ben Yegudah did was standardize that.”

And who is he to standarize it? This isn’t any language -it’s Loshon Hakodesh. You just can’t add words because it makes sense.

Holy people like the Mishna and Gemmora can add words, not some Zionist. This is why I said Ivrit is it’s own language. You are beginning to get my point.

ppl chill out what does it bother you if someone talks a different langaugelet them talk the way they want dont let it bother you.

Health: You think when the Mishnah or Gemara uses Hebrew words that aren’t in Chumash that the Ba’alei Hamishnah or Gemara added them personally? It was just representative of the spoken language at the time. Ben Yehudah himself may not have been someone to standardize a language. But when people start speaking that way it’s what the language itself becomes.

my cleaning lady is born in the USA and speaks primarily Spanish. She respects her heritage, perhaps, and perhaps we should respect ours?

Welldressed007, My heritage is Jewish, not German.

Chulent, was Moshe Rabbeinu a Yid? What about Dovid haMelech?

Sam – The Taanim or Amorayim maybe didn’t make the words up, but their usage of them indicates acceptance into Hebrew/LK.

Who Okayed Ben-Yehuda’s words into LK?

Sorry; since nobody nowadays is capable of this – it remains a new language.

147 -“Chulent:- An Ivri speaks Ivrit.”

Wrong. An Ivri speaks Ivris. If you don’t speak Ivris (LK) or Yiddish -you aren’t speaking a Jewish language.

Ivrit is Not a Jewish language, just a language made up by some Zionist Kofer.

Health: I would never Ta’ana that Ben Yehudah making up words makes them Lashon Hakodesh. I don’t even really hold that modern Hebrew is LK, but I think thinking that it does is a valid Shittah with what to rely on. My point was that if modern Hebrew became LK, it did so because it became common usage among a very large percentage of Jewish people (whether as a first language or a second), not because Ben Yehudah invented the words.

.. And anyone talking bad about America must go to the kevarim of R’ Gershon (George) Washington, R’ Avraham Lincoln, R’ Binyamin Franklin, etc. America was a safe haven for Jews…

Sam2 -“Health: I would never Ta’ana that Ben Yehudah making up words makes them Lashon Hakodesh. I don’t even really hold that modern Hebrew is LK, but I think thinking that it does is a valid Shittah with what to rely on.”

I don’t think it’s a valid Shitta, but why do you?

“My point was that if modern Hebrew became LK, it did so because it became common usage among a very large percentage of Jewish people (whether as a first language or a second), not because Ben Yehudah invented the words.”

That’s exactly my point -usage of words can’t possibly enter these words into LK without these words being Okayed by s/o who knows whether they can be admitted to the language or not. I don’t think there is anyone alive nowadays that can do this. I doubt even in the last hundreds of years there were people who could do this. But maybe there were.

Let me explain you what I heard in a Shiur about LK. It isn’t like any other language. For something to exist in this world there has to be a Ruchnius counterpart in Shomayim. Eg. -Take a “table”. For us to have a “table” in this world there has to be a counterpart upstairs. What is this counterpart? The word “Shulchan” is the counterpart. So LK is the Metzious of things the way they really are in Shomayim. So if a table didn’t have the name “Shulchan” then there would be No “table” as we know it on this world. The LK word is the backbone of the object. So you just can’t add words to LK -you have to know what’s going on in Shomayim. People without Ruach Hakodesh can’t do this.

So my point is Ivrit is a made up language, it’s Not Hebrew/LK. Like “Telephone”, what is “telephone” in Ivrit? It’s “telephone” spelled with Hebrew letters. This can’t possibly make it into LK. The real Hebrew word for “telephone” -the only way to know this -is if you know why a telephone can exist in this world. If you know the Ruchnius counterpart to “telephone” then that’s its’ Hebrew word.

Sam -I only posted this to you because you are probably one of the few here that can understand it.

Health: That is an entirely valid Shittah. However, as I mentioned above, it is seemingly a Machlokes between the Nodah Bihudah and the Sefer Abudraham as to whether or not Lashon Hakodesh can change based on how people speak (and based on whether Davening is inherently Lashon Hakodesh etc.). You perfectly explained the Shittah that Halachic Lashon Hakodesh predates the world and has complete mystical meanings etc. However, there is an opposing Shittah that Lashon Hakodesh can change like any other language and that the Ikkar importance of Lashon Hakodesh is that it’s the language the Torah was given in and that K’lal Yisrael speaks. So according to this Shittah, I can hear the claim that modern Hebrew has the Halachic status of Lashon Hakodesh.

Ohr Chodesh: Thank you for ignoring the whole post where I say,

“I would never Ta’ana that Ben Yehudah making up words makes them Lashon Hakodesh. I don’t even really hold that modern Hebrew is LK, but I think thinking that it does is a valid Shittah with what to rely on. My point was that if modern Hebrew became LK, it did so because it became common usage among a very large percentage of Jewish people (whether as a first language or a second), not because Ben Yehudah invented the words.”

You ignored the “common usage” part of that post.