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ronsr: YOU definately should and are more than welcome to do whatever you can to unearth underling causes and address them. Why that is relevant to this thread is beyond me. The needs of the Jewish Nation are great and we should all to our best to help the klal but why confuse the issue.
perhaps it does have to do with the shidduch system. If people are matched and become unhappy so quickly, maybe that points to a problem in the matching system, or in the expectations that one goes into a shidduch.
For something there’s been “enough talk on” people can’t get enough of the subject 🙂
“Why don’t we worry about the marriage crisis. So many more young couples are divorcing these days. “
That is because the stars in the girls’ eyes about being n’shei chayil, quickly dim when they realize a) they don’t know the guys they married and b) Maybe the boys are not mature enough to get married at a young age, and c) maybe the girls they married might be a size 0-2, but maybe she has nothing else going for her, but he doesn’t really know that because he BARELY knows her, also.
Oomis, you forgot a few…
Neither of them has much experience dealing with members of the opposite sex. It’s hard to learn that while you’re also dealing with the stresses of a new family. The old custom of having the chosson-to-be move in with the kallah’s family for a year before the wedding at least got them used to each other in a controlled environment.
It’s difficult enough to be a young husband when you have the confidence of owning the roof over your head and knowing that you have provided for your family. When many depend on relatives, charity and the government for subsistence it shakes him in ways that go beyond religio and strike at the heart of being a man.
A woman who spends her whole life preparing for a wedding may find she’s unprepared for the reality of children, a man to look after and a family to support.
How about the fact that a young woman is embarrassed and not comfortable picking up HIS dirty underwear and smelly socks? Or is embarrassed to tell him to take a shower and/or brush his teeth. Unfortunately this happens too!!!
In addition, oomis, those size 2’s can become size 8’s very quickly after marriage especially after kids or if they are too stressed or not happy. Or those good looking shy guys, become heavy eating at their mom’s before they come home to eat at their wife’s table and are not so shy anymore when they make hurtful comments or say things they shouldn’t.
A little bit of training goes a long way.
Anuran and Aries both have highlighted even more reasons for this problem. SO on the mark. Also, people who are so careful with each other’s feelings before the wedding, often take them for granted after.
Guess this has become a new thread…… ADIOS
AZ – This WAS another thread prior to your steering it (like so many other shidduch threads) into your pet peeve. It just came back to where it started – what goes around comes around.
Besides, don’t you have any input into matters other than your usual talking points? I’m sure you are not a one-trick pony. (:
volvie the original thread asked for real solutions to the shidduch crisis, and the OP asked me directly. I gave a very very clear and detailed response to the question.
For your benefit I have reposted here:
We know that we need to accomplish 3 things
1. Encourage boys to date girls their own age
2. Encourage boys to start dating slightly earlier
3. Encourage girls to start dating slightly later
Here’s the plan
Part A). A Staggered Lakewood freezer- tu b’shvat/ pesach or even better tu’bshvat/shavuos. meaning at tu’bshvat they can only date girls above 21 (or 20 whatever) to date younger girls they must wait till pesach or shavous.
This will automatically yield the following:
1. 800+ boys a year with a selfish incentive to date close in age
2. If these boys want close in age, inevitably far fewer 19 yrs olds will be dating and the shaddchanim will be focusing on the slightly older girls in order to cater to these boys.
Part B) Slowly lower the entrance age to post EY yeshivos. If in 2 yrs from now the top entering age is 22.5 as opposed to that being the average age, we will have boys dating slightly younger. If boys are coming in around 22 and dating girls 20/21 we have basically solved the lions share of the problem.
Part C). Shortening/cutting out time in EY. Same result as B)
Until these extremely effective ideas are implemented
Part D) restart the shadchan incentive project to keep close in age on the forefront of shaddchanims minds.
Any and all help on all these idea would be greatly apreciated.
For some reason the posters choose not to focus on the real effective ideas that are being worked on.
This hardly looks like a one trick pony to me. More like the culmination of months of work by very dedicated people under guidance from leading R”Y that yielded a thought out, rehashed, effective and highly implementable set of suggestions.
The sooner these changes take effect the sooner I will disappear from the CR.
AZ, I see the structural problems and solutions slightly differently, from the perspective of a de-frocked economist with some background in demography. Similar, but slightly different. Unfortunately the differences and the solutions run right into to the teeth of what’s acceptable under the Terms of Service here. If you want to discuss them offline the mods have permission to give you my contact information.
anuran: I’m confused. Are you saying that you can’t post what you strongly feel the solution is???
feel free to contact the NASI Project. Their contact info is public. I’m sure they would cherish your input.
AZ, at the risk of going in circles, which is what the OP wanted to avoid, I have to take issue with encouraging boys to start dating earlier if it will be at the expense of their learning (e.g. artificial cut off dates for learning in E”Y) and without a concurrent, concerted effort to better prepare our boys for marriage.
Tzippi: at the risk of going in circles. With all do you resepect to your democratic right to voice your opinion. The Roshei Yeshiva advising NASI (and many others) know that its the right thing to do.
For two reasons:
1. The boys own best interest
2. the devastating shidduch situation demands this kind of minor action.
Would you like a list? of Roshei Yeshiva who think it would be better for boys to shorten/cut out the time they learn in EY.
They can wait to date until they are 27+ if the individual boy feels it is right for him. No one is telling anyone when to date.
AZ, No, I don’t want a list. I just want to know the position of the Roshei Yeshiva in Lakewood. Do THEY support cutting short the amount of learning for bochorim prior to marriage? And even more importantly, since the proposal above is to modify the LAKEWOOD freezer by staggering it, do the LAKEWOOD Roshei Yeshiva support this endeavor?
Yes or No?
Yes as long as it doesn’t effect their yeshiva……
Therefore
1. Being worked on and will happen sooner then later
2. Being worked on and will take a bit longer
People in the know predict that within two years both of these changes will happen. first the age limits and then the freezer adjustment.
The sooner it happens the more girls who are saved…..
The longer it takes the more agunos out there.
Volvie: and hears another little secret….
The most powerful force in Frum society is Frum Society-The masses. If the masses demand it it will happen. It always has and always will. The most effective force to induce change is when the masses need it and demand it.
To date their has not been a large enough outcry. We will get there. And when we will it will happen.
It’s just a pity all the unnecessary korbanos that will have to be sacrificed till we reach that point.
AZ: You are implying the masses lead the Gedolim?
How is it shayich to change the freezer without it affecting the Lakewood Yeshiva?
I am implying that when the masses have a great and urgent need (especially when its a legitimate need) the necessary changes happen…….
I am implying that it’s not the gedolim who are preventing the change from happening……
I am implying that when the Lakewood freezer is adjusted there will be very very little damage if any to the yeshiva and the benefit to the tzibbur of yeshiva leit including the thousands sitting and learning in lakewood will be………
ASTRONOMICALL and STRATOSPHERIC
AZ, I fear that is correct. I’ve mentioned them a couple times, none of which has been preserved.
AZ, what do you propose to do with these younger bochurim who you propose start dating earlier? Are you planning on giving them a class on maturity, social skills and the difference between men and women? The reason boys are not getting married at the same age as young women is plainly and simply the fact that they are not ready. They can barely take care of themselves appropriately; to take on the responsibilities of a mature, loving, caring and unselfish married relationship and parenthood is too much to expect of bochurim that are not mature enough to handle those REAL LIFE responsibilities.
Girls can basically get married straight out of High School, that is not the case with boys.
AZ – what do you mean by “the longer it takes, the more agunos out there”?
The girls I’m seeing around today aren’t girls who could “get married straight out of high school,” and I believe their level of maturity nearly coincides with the boys’.
That’s where divorce becomes the crisis.
aries2756:
The R”Y propose that if boys started dating when they were INDIVIDUALLY ready to and not held back but artificial impediments there would be no harm done. No one is telling anyone when to date. What’s being suggested is to remove the artificial impediments.
No one in this forum is suggesting boys get married at 19 (although chazal did seem to think it was a good idea).
To put it another way. Many boys get married at 22 but far far more get married at 23. Say 1,000 at 22 and 2,000 at 23. (these are not made up numbers) If we could flip flop those numbers and have 2,000 boys getting married at 22 and 1,000 boys getting married at 23 we will have an unbelievable accomplishment. Not a total solution but a very very good start!
Sounds reasonable and very doable to me!
IR: The longer it takes to alleviate the age gap the greater the number of girls who will never get married.
Ir: the word agunos has been used by a gadol atzum in the kol koreih. To me it sounds strange but obviously since he used it it is a legitimate use of the word, even though I’m still not comfortable with it.
AZ – thank you. Tzippi – I’m not chas vesholom going to question a term used by a gadol, it just confused me.
AZ said “No one in this forum is suggesting boys get married at 19 (although chazal did seem to think it was a good idea).”
Chazal also felt it a good idea for boys to get married at 18.
IR: what’s confusing about hundreds and hundreds of girls not ever getting married. Agunos in the full sense of the word. And the community needs to start doing whaever it would do if they were agunos in the more common sense.
Typically we call to great lengths to permit a individual agunos. Here we are dealing with ridiculous numbers.
The earlier suggestions would accomplish just that.
volvie: correct.
What confused ir is that the term agunah is generally used to refer to a (married or previously married) woman who is unable Halachically to get married. (her husband is missing and probably dead, her husband won’t give her a get, insane husband, etc)
ir was not familiar with the word as used here.
YW Moed-80 Thanks. I understood that very well. And it’s high time our community get used to that word being used in this context. Because we are dealing with a situation that is nothing short of a wide spread agunos.
Thank you for elevating me to a Moed.
As a Moed, perhaps you can give a hetter to both boys and girls that it is OK to date and marry someone that does not fit the exact cookie cutter mold fixed in many peoples myopic world. A hetter to marry someone who has a job but is a baal middos and is koveya ittim. A hetter to marry someone who doesnt come from a long line of roshei yeshiva. A hetter to marry someone who (gasp!) wears a blue shirt. Basicly hetterim that will open up a whole new group of boys for these girls to date.
jphone: Cynicism noted. “those boys” are getting married as well.
AZ, you would be happy. My 27 year old cousin married a 26 year old man. She did her part!
Certainly.
actually HE did his part!!
we need many many more such shidduchim.
And if you’re going to marry off your son at 18:
Send him to a Zilberman cheder.
Note that the mishna doesn’t refer to how old your daughter in law has to be when she looks for parnasa.
Thanks tzippi:
and what if we want 2000 boys getting married at 22 and 1000 at 23
instead of 1000 at 22 and 2000 at 23.
EDITED
Tosafos is first page second perek of kiddushin 41A D”H “Assur” last line and a half of the Tosafos
Rav Shteinmans letter was posted here
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?s=shteinman+%2B+nasi
Thank you, AZ.
The source is appreciated.
The Wolf
And, as a side point, asking you to give us the exact source is not a sign of a lack of caring.
The Wolf
Not willing to look through preivous threads means one doesn’t want it BADLY enough. This has nothing to do with any individual in particular. It is simply a statement of reality that the shidduch crisis WILL be solved when the masses are DESPERATELY searching for a solution.
We are not there yet.
NOT by a long shot. So for now that can be accomplished is small baby steps towards an eventual solution.
When their is a starvation for a total and complete solution it WILL happen.
The last couple of posts was just an exercise in the difference between asking a question and REALLY REALLY wanting an answer.
its the difference between selling a hot dog to someone walking down the street and selling a hot dog to someone who is starving and came running over to the hot dog vendor.
NIGHT and DAY
AZ,
Having given a cursory read to the sources you provided, I gladly retract my comment about the sources begin fake. They are obviously real.
It seems obvious to me, however, that the meaning of words and phrases change over time. Tosfos uses the word “agunah” to clearly indicate a case where a girl cannot get married for financial reasons. Rav Shteinman uses it to indicate a girl who cannot get married for demographic reasons (assuming the age-gap theory is correct).
But those conditions are not the ones that people think of when you use the term “agunah” today. When you use that word, two things come to mind — the classic definition of a woman whose husband has disappeared or the more modern definition of a woman whose husband refuses to grant a get to his wife.
I’m not going to argue with Tosfos and Rav Shteinman — if they say that the other conditions mentioned above are technically cases of igun, then fine, they are — the semantics don’t matter to me all that much. But don’t expect people to understand what you are talking about when you use terms outside of their colloquial meanings.
The Wolf
That being said, you still must recognize that there is a fundamental difference between a woman who could marry the next person she met (if she were so inclined) and a woman who is halachically barred from getting married by another.
The Wolf
Wolfish:
Thank you for retracting.
to clarify: Tosafos is reffering to CAN NOT get married or DIFFICULT to get married????
is there any greater difficulty then there not being enough boys????
What I am looking for is for people to grasp the gravity of the situation.
SEMANTICS are thus VERY important.
Sugar coating prevent people from GETTING it.
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