English Music

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  • #590850
    chesedname
    Participant

    Am I the only one that gets sick when I walk into a Jewish establishment, and they are playing English music?

    (not heimish with English words, I’m talking about from the radio)

    I for one will leave, but why doesn’t it bother YOU??

    Wether it’s by a barber, restaurant, take out, etc…

    #746356
    haifagirl
    Participant

    If, by “English,” you mean music by Britten, Purcell, or Elgar, I rather enjoy it.

    If, by “English,” you mean music where the lyrics are not in Hebrew, Yiddish, French, Turkish, Latin, etc., I could listen to “Mama Rochel” all day long.

    What exactly is bothering you, and could you please be specific about what you mean by “English” music?

    #746357
    ronrsr
    Member

    This time of year, I’m just grateful if it’s not Christmas music.

    #746358
    Just-a-guy
    Member

    Where are you- England? U.S.A.? It doesn’t bother me per se, no. If its inappropriate, that’s a different story, and I leave, but merely being in english, for me, doesn’t make it inappropriate, nor does it make me sick. As for a Jewish establishment, there’s only really a Shul, a Yeshiva, maybe a Mikveh, but after that a restaurant is just a restaurant, a barbershop a barbershop, etc. They might be in Jewish neighborhoods, owned by Jews, but their just private establishments.

    #746359
    smartcookie
    Member

    The crazy part is when I shop in a non- jewish dept. store with the radio on and I recognize a song or two that our heimishe singers took and applied yiddish words to it…

    I’m so disgusted when they turn radio songs into jewish songs.

    #746360
    oomis
    Participant

    “I’m so disgusted when they turn radio songs into jewish songs. “

    Isn’t it better,though, that they have taken a secular piece and elevated it to something more meaningful? There is nothing intrinsically wrong with secular tunes. It’s the lyrics that sometimes make the tunes disgusting. The Maoz Tzur that most of us sing is a non-Jewish tune, isn’t it?

    #746361
    ronrsr
    Member

    My perspective comes from spending two hours this morning in a dentist’s chair, forced to listen to Christmas music.

    #746362
    ronrsr
    Member

    It don’t mean a thing

    if it ain’t got that swing.

    #746363
    mybat
    Member

    How about TVs in restaurants? Some commercials just make me embarrassed to even watch.

    #746364
    willi
    Member

    it bothers me in goyishe stores as well. As a rule whenever I shop in manhattan / dept. store I come home with a smashing headache caused by nauseating music.

    #746365
    ronrsr
    Member

    Luckily, I have an internal ipod that keeps old tunes coursing through my mind.

    Tehillim? Nigunim? Don’t I wish.

    Usually they’re television commercial jingles from long ago.

    #746366
    hodulashem
    Participant

    it totally and completely disgusts me!!!

    i get so upset when i walk into a jewish owned store or office and there is non-jewish music bouncing off the walls when choshuve people are inevitably going to pass through…

    it doesn’t have to be someone choshuv, i was just trying to make a point…

    also, playing music with female singers causes men to listen to kol isha!!

    #746367
    chesedname
    Participant

    so hodulashem

    what do you think would be the right way to stop it? it makes me crazy as well

    #746368
    haifagirl
    Participant

    there is non-jewish music bouncing off the walls

    Although this horse has been beaten long past the time it died, what is “non-Jewish” music? Music written by a non-Jew? What if a Jew is performing it? What if there are no words?

    For example, I am part of a flute-piano duo. We are both frum. If we play Suite Modale by Ernest Bloch (a Jew), is that “Jewish music” or “non-Jewish music”?

    #746369
    haifagirl
    Participant

    And so far, I still haven’t determined what is “English” music? Is “French” music okay?

    #746371
    Feif Un
    Participant

    haifagirl, what about songs with words that are by Jews? For example, there is a group called the Beastie Boys, who are all Jewish. There’s a heavy metal band called Disturbed whose singer/songwriter is a nice Jewish boy from Chicago – and his grandfather is a Rav!

    Are those considered Jewish music? What about Simon & Garfunkel?

    #746372
    cantoresq
    Member

    Well, as R. Yoilsih once said “Nach Williamsburg is kein Amerika.”

    #746373

    The essence of music is intrisically ruchniyus (many midroshim and meforshim discuss this–i.e. Mizmor L’Dovid, L’Dovid Mizmor etc.). It can help bring one to the heights of d’vaykus to HKB”H, or R”L the opposite. There are those neshomos that are particularly sensitive to music and it’s powers, and each individual should be aware of which kind of music has a positive or negative effect on them. That being said, I heard many years ago two interesting points in a shiur about music: 1)The music itself absorbs the intentions of the composer, and will in turn have an effect on the listener–(I wish I could remember sources quoted…..) 2)All positive ruchniyus/Jewish music was created at Ma’mad Har Sinai and was stored away to later be retrieved by the neshomos that would come into the world to bring them down and have the effect that HKB”H wants it to. Just some musical food for thought.

    It would bother me if a Jewish/Frum establishment chose to play non-Jewish music–there is a choice, but since I’m not the owner/proprietor then I could just make a friendly suggestion.

    #746374
    haifagirl
    Participant

    Nobody has yet answered my question. Please clarify. Are we talking about “religious” vs. “secular” music? Music written/performed by Jews vs. non-Jews? Music in English vs. any other language in the universe?

    The original question was:

    Am I the only one that gets sick when I walk into a Jewish establishment, and they are playing English music?

    Which leads me to believe I can put on a Mexican radio station and poster when have a problem with it!

    If that is not the intended question, then please write what you mean instead of asking me to read your mind.

    #746375
    haifagirl
    Participant

    You can tell my frustration at this thread. I can’t even type normally! That should have read:

    Which leads me to believe I can put on a Mexican radio station and the poster would not have a problem with it!

    (Mods: If you want to fix it, that would be great!)

    you did a fine job yourself

    #746376
    chesedname
    Participant

    to Haifagirl the question was pretty simple and clear, read the ( ) not jewish music with english words, i was talking about the radio, and goyim singing their songs, where is the confusion?

    Am I the only one that gets sick when I walk into a Jewish establishment, and they are playing English music?

    (not heimish with English words, I’m talking about from the radio)

    I for one will leave, but why doesn’t it bother YOU??

    Wether it’s by a barber, restaurant, take out, etc…

    #746377
    haifagirl
    Participant

    So what you REALLY meant was SECULAR music, not ENGLISH. The way you stated it, a salsa CD would be acceptable. It’s not English; it’s not the radio. And those were the two critera you mentioned.

    Thank you for clearing that up.

    #746378

    If the music is inappropriate whether it’s Jewish or not I could see being upset. You do have to realize that even if the business is owned by a Jew they may need non Jewish customers to stay in business. In general I don’t believe that just b/c music is made by a non jew it is not good. Music has incredible effect on the human mind and can have a good or bad influence. Just as an example what is wrong with a song like “Stairway to Heaven” by Led Zepplin or “Accidents can Happen” by Sixx AM? on the other hand the band Disturbed may have a Jewish singer but their lyrics are angry and sometimes inappropriate.

    #746379
    willi
    Member

    I think chesedname meant to say “goyishe music”

    #746380
    haifagirl
    Participant

    willi: The point is, that is not what chesedname wrote. Far too many people in the CR don’t seem to be willing (or possibly able) to write clearly. There is no reason for that. If a person writes what he means, then there won’t be confusion.

    #746381
    Getzel
    Participant

    I was in France in a store i heard the radio playing a song [Goiysher words] that sounded familiar

    i then realized it was Piamentas “Asher bara sason vsimcha chatan vkalla”

    Thats called HORRIBLE

    #746382
    oomis
    Participant

    There is a great deal of secular music that is truly beautiful. The fact that it is secular does not make it HORRIBLE. The type of music that I would find horrible is gangsta rap, heavy metal, anything with offensive and obscene lyrics or that depict violence and use curse words. That would bother me and I woudl walk right out, and probably say something to the proprietor. But “Somewhere Over the Rainbow” or the music from “Titanic” are also secular songs, and they are absolutely beautiful.

    #746383
    ronrsr
    Member

    There is a school of thought that says that most American classics ARE Jewish music, written by first-generation American-Jewish songwriters, who borrowed heavily from the Jewish musical traditions of Eastern Europe, including sacred music. Quite a few were sons of cantors.

    To quote Jerome Kern’s (a great American composer of popular songs, born in America of two immigrant parents) conclusion on Israel Isidor Beilin (changed his name to Irving Berlin, he was the son of a cantor): “”Irving Berlin has no place in American music – he is American music.”

    And I can mame Jacob Gershowitz (George Gershwin, son of Jewish immigrants from Europe), Samuel Cohen (Sammy Cahn, ditto), Richard Rogers, Lorenz Hart, Oscar Hammerstein II, Stephen Sondheim, Harold Arlen (Chaim Arlook, son of a cantor), Kurt Weill (another son of a cantor).

    These men alone are responsible for over 1/2 of the great American songs we regard as standards. Cole Porter, another of the great 20th century songwriters, regarded himself as the token goy on tinpan alley.

    Then, of course, you can’t ignore the players and purveyors of that music, who wove the rhythm of Jewish Klezmer into American Jazz- Benny Goodman comes to mind – did you ever notice the resemblance between “The Grine Cuzine” and “My Country Cousin?”

    I’ve always considered the bulk of American music to actually be Jewish music.

    #746384
    ronrsr
    Member

    Ooomis,

    Interesting selection of songs. Somewhere Over the Rainbow was written by two Jews. The composer was Harold Arlen, son of a cantor, and the lyricist was E.Y “Yip” (Edgar Yipsel) Harburg (born Isidore Hochberg).

    #746387
    oomis
    Participant

    Thanks for the info, ronrsr. I should have known. But then again, one of the most famous winter holiday songs of the non-Jews was written by Irving Berlin.

    #746388

    Getzel said

    I was in France in a store i heard the radio playing a song [Goiysher words] that sounded familiar

    i then realized it was Piamentas “Asher bara sason vsimcha chatan vkalla”

    Thats called HORRIBLE

    What he/she most likely heard was a song by an Australian group called “In the Land Down Under”. Piamenta took the tune and made their “Asher Bara” song.

    Using this above pretext, would you therefore ussur Gershon Veroba, who also uses secular melodies – such as the Beatles “I Want to Hold Your Hand” becoming “I Wanna Hold My Land”, and also Lenny Solomon and Shlock Rock?

    #746389
    Jothar
    Member

    Gershon Veroba makes no pretense of composing those songs.

    #746390

    Jothar, you’re right about that. However, the post that started this thread didn’t take issue with who composed the melody, but rather, if it were secular music or not. Or at least that’s what we think chesedname meant.

    If the gripe is using secular music for a Heimeshe song, then Veroba’s songs would also fall into the same category as Piamenta and Schlock Rock, and OMG, Lipa’s early stuff. Not to mention MBD’s “Yidden”, ‘cept that the latter wouldn’t bother chesedname because it comes from a German rock song, not an English one.

    #746392
    oomis
    Participant

    Music is music. Melodies can be used to uplift the spirit or they can be used in degrading ways. Isn’t it far better to take a song and elevate it spiritually by infusing it with lyrics pertaining to chessed and Torah, when it might have started out as a beer hall drinking song?

    #746393

    Yes, oomis1105, right on all counts.

    #746394
    charliehall
    Participant

    A spectacularly example of uplifting “non-Jewish” music is “Va, pensiero”. It was written by the non-Jewish but philo-Semitic Italian opera composer Giuseppe Verdi. It expresses musically the composer’s feelings about what Jews in Babylon must have felt while in exile longing for their land. I find it as moving as Psalm 137.

    #746395
    haifagirl
    Participant

    charliehall: You are absolutely right. That is such a beautiful chorus. Very moving.

    #746396
    Bemused
    Participant

    “Music is music. Melodies can be used to uplift the spirit or they can be used in degrading ways. Isn’t it far better to take a song and elevate it spiritually”

    I agree. With the exception of music from forbidden origins (such as Avodah Zara), some music is simply refined and uplifting, and some of music is degrading, as Oomis notes, or is the catalyst for lewd movements or less than spiritual atmosphere. A “Jewish” label on a cd is no “hechsher”, and some of our refined and uplifting tunes originate from less than stellar places.

    #746398
    ronrsr
    Member

    and lyrics certainly matter, too.

    Maos Tzur is a different song than the same tune with the original lyrics.

    The Star Spangled Banner is a different tune than its predecessor.

    Words have power, too.

    The song by George and Ira Gershwin, “It Ain’t Necessarily So,” was the theme of the Danish Resistance to Hitler in WWII. Was it because of the music?

    #746399

    Why dont they just play classical or jazz or something without words. pure tunes and then there wont be a real problem. The tunes are the same anyways. Let the goyim think its there songs, and us ours. I personally have something against some of the modern “jewish” (purposely in quotes) songs. They sometimes sound more goyish than what we could hear on the radio! THOSE tunes give me headaches!

    #746400
    happyOOTer
    Participant

    Uncle Moishy borrows secular tunes very heavily for his music. Admirable yet annoying, LOL.

    Charliehall above mentions “Va, pensiero” from the opera “Nabucco” (or Nebchadnezzar) by Verdi. The opera is set in 587 BCE. This chorus is also called The Chorus of the Hebrew Slaves, and is one of the most beautiful and best-known melodies in all opera.

    There were other operas written based on Torah events, mostly by Italian composers in the early to mid-19th century. Unfortunately, opera as an art form is problematic for those who hold by the standards of tsnius and kol isha.

    Havesomeseichel, to me it is not enough to ‘just’ listen to instrumental classical music. Many classical composers in Europe were employed by the church, so I won’t listen to anything that was intended for that audience even if it is not immediately obvious. The list of what I consider acceptable has narrowed greatly since my pre-BT days, but I would wither to give up listening to music completely (I have spoken to my Rav about this).

    To answer the original question, I cringe when I walk into any store, whether Jewish-owned or not, and hear things that do not fit into anyone’s vision of frumkeit. There’s really no excuse in this day and age for a frum-owned business not to make parve whatever music is playing. There are many options, whether the clientele are exclusively frum or not.

    #746402
    oomis
    Participant

    The only classical composer who comes to mind, whose music I avoid, is Wagner.

    #746403
    charliehall
    Participant

    happyOOTer,

    Rov Soloveitchik matired all classical music, including opera, as not falling under the kol isha prohibition. I’ve discussed this at length with my rabbi, a talmid of The Rov, who actually attended an opera himself for the first time last spring (at the age of 70!). That this was intended not as a theoretical statement but practical halachah le-maaseh is that Yeshiva University has been holding an opera fundraiser for decades. This year it was Puccini’s “Turandot”.

    If your rabbi holds like The Rov, do try to see Verdi’s Nabucco. It is a very moving opera with a happier ending than what happened in real life.

    #746405
    happyOOTer
    Participant

    charliehall, I have to say that I am very surprised to hear that for a number of reasons. I have seen many operas, and I worked for an opera company for many years after (secular) college. Did the Rav take into consideration the subject matter of the opera? Many opera plots glorify situations and relationships that are just not kosher by any standard. I didn’t start caring about that until the BT bug set in.

    I have seen Nabucco, but Turandot is actually my favorite opera. Talk about a shidduch crisis, LOL. Rigoletto is another I always have loved the music to, but if my kids were to ask for the English translation of the Italian, there’s no way I would tell them!

    To be honest, I am shocked that YU has been having opera fundraisers. I am female so kol isha isn’t an issue, but I am just sensitive, I guess.

    Oomis, I agree on Wagner. Some people can separate the man from his music, but I can’t.

    #746406
    oomis
    Participant

    Turandot – isn’t that the opera with the very heavenly “Nessan Dorma?” I LOVE that piece.

    #746407
    happyOOTer
    Participant

    oomis – Yes, it is! “None shall sleep”… (until he finds out the name of the Ice Princess)

    Also the source of the first table tennis reference in opera (Ping, Pong and Pang, the comic/tragic ministers) 🙂

    (One of the great ironies of opera is Chinese characters singing in Italian, not that Italians would have understood Chinese)

    #746408

    Getting back to the original subject, here’s something annoying. I was in a kosher pizza shop last night. They normally have CBS-FM on in the background. And what were we subjected to as we had our dinner – Xmas music, albeit not their “religious” stuff, but still, totally inappropriate. I intend to tell the owner that he really should find an alternative station during this time of year. In fact, he could have put on Nachum Segal’s show at that hour of the evening!

    #746409
    oomis
    Participant

    During these non-Jewish holidays (if not ALL the time), it would be so smart of the Jewish store owners to play CDs, rather than their radios. There is no secular station that plays strictly non-sectarian music. I listen to talk radio. Much less problematic.

    Now it may be that in some stores, there is a wider demographic. Maybe not all the customers are Jewish. Still, mamesh non-Jewish holiday music should not be heard in those places.

    #746410

    Aside from the Jewish customers, this particular pizza shop gets a lot of Hindus. And it’s not their holiday either.

    #746411
    bombmaniac
    Participant

    ok. leitzonus aside, jewish music…(and by that, for all you idiots out there…i mean shwekeyish and your standard mainstream frum composers…) with english words is perfectly fine. plain music…be it from a jewish or non jewish composer…essentially has nothing wrong with it. as an extention of that, there is nothing wrong with taking a non jewish song and amking it jewish by changing the theme and lyrics. many old time niggunim are written originally written by non jews.

    when it comes to non jewish music with words, the story changes. MANY (not all) non jewish songs these days are atrocious, with such sexually explicit lyrics, that would they be turned into a movie, they would be rated XXX. therefore in GENERAL (please note…in GENERAL) they are all assur. that being said, just because a non jew writes a song, and its lyrics…does NOT make it assur! take Guns N’ Roses – Cats In The Cradle for example. the lesson in that song is applicable to everyone, jews and non jews alike. there are no sexual references in that song at all. it is a song that tells fathers to spend more time with their sons. is there anything wrong with that?

    now that that is established…back to the subject at hand. a jew should NOT be playing non jewish music with lyrics in his place of business. there is no reason for it, but if he IS, before judging, listen to the lyrics before making your objections. it may be a completely acceptable song.

    when it comes to non jews. a jew walking into the place of business of a non jew, has no right to complain about the music, unless it is generally offensive (i.e…it has explicit sexuality in the song) it is their business, and if you dont like it, walk out. there is a story (i think it was about rav moshe…) he got into a cab, and the driver was playing non jewish music on his radio. the talmid that was with him was about to ask the driver to turn it off, when his rebbi stopped him. the basic idea was…this is what he does…he drives around in this car all day…who are we to deprive him of this simple pleasure.

    like someone said above (forgive me for not quoting you directly) if you feel so strongly about it, then get an ipod, and listen to that.

    on the subject of christmas carols. many of them don’t even reference christmas at all! i see no reason why anyone would find them offensive at all! for example…”jungle bells” just talks about a sleigh ride…whats wrong with that? or “let it snow” is a song about how cold it is outside! whats wrong with that? i am not advocating playing that in your house…but honestly, what is there to get so worked up about?

    as for songs that directly reference christmas…if you are sooooooooooo offended by that…than get an ipod.

    merry chanukah ;D;D;D

    Guns ‘N Roses? Don’t know about that. “Cat’s In the Cradle” was a #1 hit for Harry Chapin. – Moderator 77

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