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cantoresq,
Avram did your hypothetial yungerman start out in Kollel relying on obtaining the benefits, or anticipating going on them at some point in the future?
I would assume that he started out in Kollel on the food stamps, intending to learn full time for a period of time and then try to garner additional income through teaching, safrus, shopkeeper, etc.
Madam in E. Yisroel, Creating an impression that frum people take advantage of others and live off others is worse than being rude.
And, yes, I believe, I am qualified to pasken on this shaila.
I also hold that what is going on in E. Yisroel is a CHillul HaShem.
If a person legitimately needs to go on food stamps, for whatever reason (whether in Kollel or out of a job), then they should partake in this government program. However, it should be used as a temporary help and not permanent.
The gemarah in Baba Basra (110a-b):
“…. According to the Gemara, Yehonatan answers that he has a family tradition that a person should sooner hire himself out to for idol worship (avodah zara) than accept charity from others. The Gemara comments that this maxim was misunderstood by Yehonatan, for its true intent was that a person should accept work that is not what he ordinarily does (avodah she-zara lo) rather than accept charity. To support this interpretation, the Gemara relates something that Rav once said to Rav Kahane – you should be willing to skin animals in the marketplace and get paid, and you should not say that it is below the dignity of an important person such as yourself”
I do believe that the gemarah is self explanatory and nothing else needs to be said.
jewish and working 22 – Sorry you are wrong! That Gemorrah doesn’t apply to people sitting and learning all day! Look up the halachos, before you Pasken!
That Gemorrah doesn’t apply to people sitting and learning all day!
Why not? After all, the statement is said by an Amorah to an Amorah, who worked & did not learn full time?
There is a famous Maggid Mishna on the Ramabam that says one may not take money for learning (IIRC) that askes the question of “Kardom” i.e. how can people live off their learning? The answer given is that without it, Torah will not be learned to the requirements of what Klal Yisroel needs (that is how I understand it, others may differ).
AKA: Es Laasos L’Hahashem Heferu Torasecha.
So the Gemorah does apply to people who learn full time, we just choose to ignore the halacha based on other neccessities (as we do in other cases as well, such as writing the Mishna).
But people “forget” the gedorim involved.
mdd — I will take the bait and ask what exactly in Eretz Yisroel are you referring to as Chillul Hashem? Certainly according to all opinions the public desecration of Halacha by Jews is the primary example of Chillul Hashem. So yes, unfortunately there is a tremendous amount of Chillul Hashem in Eretz Yisroel today. . . but what does that have to do with this topic?
BTW — I spent my Kollel years in the US, not in Israel. And as mentioned earlier, I supported my husband with a decent paying job during those years. We did not live off anyone else (not our parents nor the government). We never received ANY government welfare (food stamps, HUD, section 8, medicare, etc.), with the exception of 1 year early on when I was still in graduate school (on weekends, working during the week), and we qualified for WIC (a supplemental food program aimed at lower middle class women who are expecting/ nursing, and young children). So I am not trying to defend myself here, simply to express my understanding of others who make this choice.
Here in Israel my husband is in Chinuch, not in Kollel, and the only government money we receive is the “kiztvat yelodim”, the “child subsidy” payments which are part of bituach leumi and have nothing to do with income.
I meant trying to keep everyone in Kollel on the government money despite the deep and loud resentment of the majority of the country.
GAW – Look in the Remah Y’D Simon 246, #21, where it starts out like you, but ends not like that. That’s why I posted -“Look up the halachos, before you Pasken!”
J & W 22 was using that Gemorrah to prove a point Halacha L’masseh, but it isn’t how we come out at the end of the Remah, but nice try.
That Rema is based off the Kesef Mishna (my mistake) (i.e. the Bais Yosef), and basically says the same thing. Have a look at the Shach there who says this.
Also, you have much anger in you. Please don’t take it out on us.
I am a working father . I work hard and try to grab all the overtime that my job has so that i can make ends meet. With emunah and bitachon i survive. Jsut when youthink you will braek from financial presure Hasjem sends you an unexpected yeshua. Yes- I believe that honesty is the best policy. Sadly in shul teh hottest topic is who can milk out the most from the government. I remember twenty years ago people were embarrased to used food stamps etc. It was and is meant to be a temporary aid. My daughter tells me that her friends are so excited to get it and anounce it. Yyou think your children wont know the difference, I hear kids saying how there parents are unofficially divorced . It all starts with a little lie here and then into big things. I see a big difference in atituse and personality withththe people who try to honestly make a parnassah and others who got the easy way and acam. I went thru a time when i felt that maybe i was the only one who looks to see where is the cheapest and running after the sales.Seems like every one is on this governemnt tzedak. TO those who need it honestly may hashem bentch you with parnassah beharchava . And to the others who are scamming, Shame on you . YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TOSTEAL FROM HARD WORKING PEOPLE. It is wrong to start your life thinking you will live on this forever. It is disgusting to see poeple subletting section 8 apt to people for a crazy amount and to hear how poeple are so creative in scamming. use your creativity for the righ things. A woman told my daghter with no shame, why do you pay so much for insurance per month, jsut write a paper ir claim siblings for dependents. How dare people curropt young minds like that.
Sorry for all the spelling mistakes. Typing and doing oter things at the same time.
GAW – I don’t have much anger in me about everything. I just don’t like it when people use Gemorahs and other things to prove something, that L’masseh isn’t the Halacha. Actually, I almost never learnt in Kollel, but that doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with someone who does and has to rely on gov. programs or Tzedokoh!
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