embarassed to use food stamps

Many Goyim in this country look at people taking government programs as lazy bums who live off others ( unless there is a very valid reason). Look in the Gemora I mentioned to understand how much Chazal were concerned about this. You can’t use some lame excuses. Mila is not objectively questionable. Living off others is.

cantoresq:

“MW13, it’s a matter of values. And while my citations are subject to other interpretations, the point I wanted to make is that in G-d’s natural order, after Adam comitted original sin, is that one works to earn his living.”

If you truly believe that working is part of a “natural order” that we must uphold, must somebody who wins the lottery work anyways? If working is truly what Hashem intends for us, how can anybody ever retire?

“it’s a matter of values”

It certainly is. We believe that learning is more important than working; you seem to think quite the opposite.

KAVOD HATORAH,I only read your post to me just now.You know what I mean:If you need it,yes take it,don’t be ashamed.If you don’t need it,don’t take it,it is shameful to take what you don’t need.

Clearer now?

If you need it and legally you qualify for it then no need to be embarrassed and hashem should give you parnassah beharchava.IF YOU DONT NEED IT AND YOU SCAM IT THEN YOU SHOULD BE EMBARRASED. You would never be mechalel shabbos ,so why would you steal other peoples hard earned money. I dont know why people think it is OK to scam . I work in a school with many modern orhtodox teachers and one of the biggest topics of the teacher’s room is how is that frum people are so dishonest. One of the teachers husband works in mnhattan with a chasidish yungerman, The yungerman told him without any embarasment exactly how he scams even tho he has a job that he can live nicely

cantoresq:

What about someone born to a rich family? The father gives him 100 million in the bank or whatever and the kid supports his own family off the interest. Never works a day in his life. Is that scenario impossible?

Also I’m not so into politics, but why exactly should we care if goyim practice toeiva marriages?

It is also interesting to note many gedolim learned for crazy of numbers an hour every day sleeping very little and when asked about it gave the same answer “I have time to sleep when I’m dead, now is the time to learn”.

And indeed working if far more important that learning, at least for the overwhelming majority of people. It’s a mistaken ideology to say otherwise.

You would be doing a big mitzvah for me if you can point me to a sefer that expresses this ideology.

mdd:

Mila is not objectively questionable. Living off others is

The proof that milah is if anything subjectively questionable are the movements to ban bris milah. How can you say it is not objectively questionable when such movements exist?

How about kashrus? Some countries have already banned shechting animals in their countries. Should they not eat kosher meat so as not to cause chilul Hashem by those that think we are being cruel to animals?

anon for this:

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but limud Torah is also a mitzvos asei. And a mitzva that Jews throughout history have risked their lives for. We both know that using food stamps is not a mitzvah. But if using food stamps will allow one to be mekayem the mitzvah that is shokul kneged kol hamitzvos, I haven’t been convinced yet that I need to worry about what the goyim think.

DHM, is CHillul HaShem an aveira? A big one, maybe?

What about learning guys and the rich parents give them everything possible -new house, new car, new clothes, etc…, but it’s not in the children’s name. They technicaly are eligible, so they take gov. programs. Comments?

DHM,living off a government charity is a poshute, universal ta’ana. Stop dreing, already. Lame and convoluted explanations are no heter for Chillul HaShem.

Government programs were meant(as Tsedoka) for people who fell on hard times and can not (temporarily, usually) put bread on the table. Forget about your Yeshivishe negiyos, think about how it looks to an unbiased outsider.

One is allowed to take money from people who want to support your learning, but the American public never volunteered, and some people might(c^v) have ta’anos.

Stop already your outrageous crume excuses!

Shlishi, did you use to be “myfriend”?

cantoresq — I don’t understand your last post — until this point I disagreed with you but heard where you were coming from. But “mitvah habah b’aveirah??” Taking food stamps may or may not be hashkafically justified, but assuming you honestly qualify, what aveirah is there? And “naval birshut haTorah” as far as I’ve ever heard it be used is talking about behaving inappropriately without technically violating any aveiros (Rashi’s famous example in Kedoshim is one who gorges himself in an excessive feast, but all the food is kosher). It is not talking about doing a mitzvah — it is talking about something that is muttar — neutral so to speak, but not in the spirit of how a Jew should behave. I’m having a lot of trouble understanding the application here.

As far as the original question, I personally belief the whole welfare system in the US is set up in a ridiculous fashion, and that these government programs should be designed to be only a stop – gap measure for true emergency situations. I think our community as a whole would benefit more from lower taxes (and therefore more of a maaser obligation) than from continuing to subsidize these programs which after everything benefit other, far less deserving communities much more than Kollel learners. HOWEVER, as long as that is not the case, and the system continues the way it is, why must someone in Kollel be more stringent than the government? If everything is yosher (obviously I am not referring to the stories above describing abuses of the system — I think we all understand that stealing is an aveira), and one honestly qualifies, why can’t they benefit just like anyone else?

As a former union member in NYC, I once read a column in one of the union newspapers, lauding an individual who decided to boycott Walmart even though as a result he was forced to apply for food stamps as his cost of living went up when shopping in more expensive stores. He was admired for his principles — and no one had a word of criticism for his “sponging off the government.” Those who resent Jews, or frum Jews, or Jews who learn will always find fodder for their resentment, but if one is not doing anything wrong, that usually does not constitute a chillul Hashem.

Just for the record, I never received any government welfare while my husband was in Kollel, except for about 1 year while I was still finishing graduate school and was expecting and qualified for the WIC program only. Once I graduated my income was such that we never qualified for anything, B”H.

M in Israel, kindly, re-read my previous posts. I think, I was quite clear.

m in Israel, unethical does not always mean illegal.

health, it isn’t even unethical to receive food stamps if you technically qualify under the legal guidelines that determine eligibility, even if your parents are Rockefeller but you are an adult child who has no income. as long as he honestly answered all the questions on the food stamps application and they approved it correctly, that is all that determines its ethics. and im talking in general, not about kollel people or any specific subgroup. (kollel people actually do not live in the lap of luxury.)

shlishi – “health, it isn’t even unethical to receive food stamps if you technically qualify under the legal guidelines that determine eligibility, even if your parents are Rockefeller but you are an adult child who has no income”

If your parents/inlaws give you a lot of money and/or merchandise, and you really Can survive without the gov. programs, then- Yes, it is UNETHICAL!

“(kollel people actually do not live in the lap of luxury.)”

A good percentage of kollel people do! (Not all.)

cantoresq,

M in Israel, if one uses to stolen money to support his limmud Torah, it is a mitzvah habah b’aveirah; just like using stolen money to buy Arbeh Minim. If one uses public funds to support his limmud Torah in those instances which you acknowledge it may be hashcafially inappropriate to do so, what else is it, if not navel birshut haTorah? Halacha may technically allow it, but it is disgusting.

I would like to get a better understanding of your position.

Suppose a man with a family worked as a janitor and received minimum wage. Would you be opposed to this man receiving government assistance to live?

Avram in MD, I would have no such objection. But I would also expect the janitor in your hypothetical, to look for ways to get off of public assistance.

cantoresq,

But I would also expect the janitor in your hypothetical, to look for ways to get off of public assistance.

Ok. So now consider a man learning in kollel. Would you be opposed to this man receiving government assistance to live, provided he was looking for ways to get off public assistance?

Avram did your hypothetial yungerman start out in Kollel relying on obtaining the benefits, or anticipating going on them at some point in the future?

There is such a thing as Da’as Torah, even if SJSinNYc and Cantoresq think whatever they think. Acording to you, SJSinNYC and Cantoresq, is it o.k. for someone to be in kollel and rely on the financial support of others? Have you ever heard of Issochar and Zevulun? Of Chachazokas ha’Torah? Why is it o.k. for universities to receive grants for their work? As far as the government programs go , it is a different sha’ila.

is it fair that working ppl sponsor the non working who choose not to work?

On the subject of Yissocher/Zevulun, can a non-Jew really participate in such a relationship?

Thank you Hashem for the government programs that you give me. That allows me to sit and learn!

“M in Israel, if one uses stolen money to support his limmud Torah, it is a mitzvah habah b’aveirah; just like using stolen money to buy Arbeh Minim. If one uses public funds to support his limmud Torah in those instances which you acknowledge it may be hashcafially inappropriate to do so, what else is it, if not navel birshut haTorah? Halacha may technically allow it, but it is disgusting.”

I don’t know anyone who would disagree with your first sentence, but I don’t see what that has to do with anything. Obviously if one is using stolen money it’s a problem. My understanding was that we were discussing money that was NOT stolen – i.e. if one is legitimately eligible for a program, should they avoid it so as to avoid Chillul Hashem, or because it is better not leave Kollel rather than be dependent on some form of “tzedakah”, etc. I said it “may be hashkafically inappropriate” — referring to the previous posts, not agreeing to the statement. I was saying that even one who feels there are Hashkafic problems can not legitimately say it is an “aveirah”.

mdd — I wasn’t addressing your arguments in my post, but as you seemed to feel I was, I will expand on my point. You may believe (as I in fact do believe) that government programs should be designed “(as Tsedoka) for people who fell on hard times and can not (temporarily, usually) put bread on the table.” However in the US today that is NOT the case. Most people who receive the more substantial forms of government assistance receive it for a lifetime. Many use it for numerous purposes other than putting bread on the table. If you believe otherwise you are out of touch with the reality of life in most “welfare” communities.

Judging the reality as such, if a legal program exists, with no particular “looking for work” requirements, and one qualifies 100%, I fail to see any ethical reason to avoid it, particularly if one is doing this in order to be involved in Limud Torah. Halacha does allow one to accept Tzedaka in order to learn (in fact in many situations supporting someone learning is actually one of the higher priorities in Tzedaka). I do not consider government funding an issue of tzedaka as the “givers” have no choice. I am just addressing the concept that seems to be recurring here that there is something innately wrong with “living of others” for the purpose of learning. I agree there is a problem with the nature of how such programs are set up, but fail to see how that incriminates one who participates in such a program.

In all honesty the only argument here that sounds reasonable based in Torah hashkafa as opposed to a WASP work ethic is the question of Chillul Hashem. Chillul Hashem is a HUGE aveira, as you mentioned earlier. (One for which even Yom Hamisa does not bring forgiveness.) But as with all mitzvos/ aveiros, the definition of Chillul Hashem is not what makes sense to you, or even based on some random critical comment. There are Halachic definitions and parameters, and as many poskim permit participating in such programs, I find it hard to believe that this is an “obvious” application of the Halachos.

From a logical perspective, I have listened to numerous talk shows, read articles, etc. from people who are vehemently opposed to the welfare system,and have yet to hear anyone complain about those learning in Kollel. I worked in the secular workplace for many years, and unfortunately heard many complaints about Jews, but never that they were too poor or a drain on society! It seems to me that if there is an issue of Chillul Hashem in this situation, it is in the eyes of other Jews, unfortunately. (Again, the main inyun of Kiddush Hashem/ Chillul Hashem is in front of Jews, so it doesn’t change the issue, I’m just addressing previous posts.)

M in Israel, if the Goyim have ta’anos, and the ta’anos are reasonable and fair ta’anos — it is a Chillul HaShem. That is the geder for this aveira.

mdd — Chillul Hashem is actually a complex Halachic discussion, and I have not gone through the sources in many years. However according to the Rambam is his Sefer Hamitzvos, the main inyun of Chillul Hashem IS in front of Jews (certainly in the classical case of Chillul Hashem, and the Halachos of when one must give up one’s life for the sake of Kiddush Hashem — it is the presence of a minyun of Jews that turn the situation into Kiddush Hashem bfarhesia — even if there are many goyim present). According to most sources, Chillul Hashem also occurs when one acts in a way that will cause Goyim to feel that you are behaving in an immoral or unbefitting way (somewhat unclear if it means immoral according to their standards or according to their perception of Torah standards), hence the common use of the term. All agree it would apply to situations such as acting in a rude or inconsiderate manner, etc. But this is not a simple issue, and certainly in a situation like this when it is questionable whether the taanos reflect a violation of any moral code, or if they actually exist (see my previous post). Each individual should consult with their Posek, but are you in fact qualified to say that all Rabbonim who hold it’s not a problem have shvere heteirim? Are you a baki in this inyun of Chillul Hashem? If so, I am not (hey, I’m a lady!),and stand corrected. If not, perhaps be careful about passing such a blanket condemnation on groups of people in Klal Yisroel.