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This seems to be against the Maharam Shik O’CH 70 as referenced by the Aim Habonim Samecha Page 158 that if you leave the poshim be elected they will do what they want to do without being able to stop them.
What’s news here? They’ve been against it since 1948. Just like Brisk.
The book you mentioned isn’t anything serious or halachic.
Joseph
The Sefer is אם הבנים שמחה and it is very serious, it was written by a huge Talmud chacham during the holocaust. It is a lot more serious than the Va-Yoel Moshe.That’s been their policy for almost 100 years (before then, there were no elections). No hiddush.
Reb Eliezer: 1. Civil disobedience. 2. Appeals to international human rights law. 3. Once you decide that all zionists are inherently opposed to Torah (not just those who claim to be anti-Torah, but even those who claim they are Torah observant), it is largely irrelevant to participate in Israeli elections since the zionists have a solid lock on the electoral system, and by participating in the elections it allows the zionists to claim that they to represent the hareidim (i.e. the anti-zionist hareidim). Note that the Arabs have a similar problem, and note how the zionists point to Palestinian participation in the kenesset as proof of Arab support for the medinah.
vayoel mosheh is very much serious,written by the satmar rav zatzal who was a massive gadol
Eliezer>>>in previous threads on related themes, this apparent contradiction was explained by some in simple terms…” the Ebeshter will assure that everything works out for us if we continue to live in accordance with his torah, even if we refuse to participate in the electoral process and governance of the medinah…”
The interesting part is that some of these groups choose to live peacefully but outside the political process and essentially ignore the government while others seek every opportunity to protest and disrupt the governmentThe reasoning is simple, in the past ALL frum gedolim including bobov viznitz satmar ger belz chabad etc and the litvishe gedolim including the chofetz chaim etc, after the medina was founded there was a split regarding how to deal with The issue, the satmar rebbe explained that its ossur to go with apkiorsim while the other gedolim reasoned that want to try and save what they can, however when so call “frum” magazines can put netanyau sr”y on there cover with no shame and claim that anti zionism is only a satmar shittah
Another point all the issues are caused by participating with the zionists, look at the israeli arabs most dont vote and arent drafted but can get full benefits because the state looks at them as a enemy, if the state looked at frum jews as a enemy then you wouldnt have a draft problem, go to there memorials and claim your protecting the state with your learning and they have a truthful claim ״if you benefit from us serve in our army”
1. Appealing to international bodies against Israel is a violation of several serious prohibitions.
2. If their young men have such great fighting spirit they should be in combat units.
3. Rav Menahem Kasher refuted the SR’s arguments in “HaTekufa HaGedola”. If they do not believe in the state their citizenships should be revoked. If their kids get caught with drugs in foreign airports they should not run crying to the embassy.
manitou:
Aim HaBanim Semecha doesn’t contain anything new. It’s a collection of all the old Zionist arguments that have long been disproven. The truth is, his position stood no chance to begin with, because even though R. Teichtel was a talmid chacham, he was opposing the collective Torah knowledge of the greatest Torah giants, including but not limited to Rav Chaim Brisker, Rav Samson Raphael Hirsh, The Chofetz Chaim, the Rogachover Gaon, The Lubavitcher Rebbe (Rashab), the Belzer Rebbe (R. Yisachar Dov), the Chazon Ish, the Brisker Rav, Rav Chaim Ozer Grodzensky, all who were opposed to Zionism and the creation of a State. So he was really quite outgunned from the start. The most extensive work on this topic is of course the Satmar Rav’s Vayoel Moshe, which disproves just about every Zionist “proof” ever conceived.
Aim HaBanim Semecha is not even taken seriously outside of Zionist circles, because it is mostly emotional sermons and discourses (droshos), rather than a serious Halachic analysis. It’s an emotional outcry in response to the holocaust (he dates the introduction Parshas Tetzaveh 1943) and its clear that he was talking out of desperation for finding a safe haven for Jews, which many felt Eretz Yisroel would be. He confuses his personal feelings with Halachic methodology, Rebbishe vertlach with Halachic rulings, and so is not at all compelling.
Example: On page 147 he addresses a powerful statement in Ahavas Yonason by R. Yonason Eyebuschitz ZT”L that it is absolutely prohibited for Jews to take over Eretz Yisroel before Moshiach, even if all the nations want them to, which is kind of a problem for a religious Zionist like R. Teichtel. This is his response: “You should understand that the words of Rav Yonason only apply when there is no sign from heaven that we should all abandon the lands of Chutz Laaretz, meaning, when Jews can live peacefully outside of Eretz Yisroel … but not nowadays, when the words of the prophet came true, [that Jews will be hunted down by goyim]. So when the nations give us permission to return to our land, can there be any doubt that it is the will of Hashem that we return to Eretz Yisroel? I am certain, that if Rav Yonason Eyebushitz was living with us today and saw the terrible golus that we endure, he himself would say to us: ‘Brother Jews! The time has come for you to go to Eretz Yisroel, for this is the will of Hashem, for it is not coincidence what has happened to us in Golus, but rather it is the finger of G-d pointing to us to rise from golus…”
Ok. Now, of course, even in the days of Rav Yonason (about 250 years ago) Jews were persecuted, and all throughout Golus they were, too. Yet R. Teichtel decided that he knows how to quantify the measure of suffering that Jews are expected to tolerate in Golus, and what on the other hand is a “sign from Hashem” for them to return. He decided that he can read Hashem’s signs and that this, for sure, is what our suffering means. Where did he get this scale? Nowhere. He decided it on his own. He and only he decided that this “sign from Hashem” tells us that the Golus is over.
Well, he can read whatever he wants into “signs from Hashem,” but this “sign from Hashem” has no Rashi or Tosfos to tell us how to interpret it. Nor did Hashem tell him how to read history, nor does he have any sources that his is the proper reading. Since when do we pasken sheailos based on personal feelings? It’s a nice sermon, but Halachicly it means nothing. Yet to him, not only is it Halachicly binding on everyone, but it “there is no longer any room for doubt”.
And it gets much, much, worse. This attitude that “everyone has to interpret the world the way I do” often passes the line into the realm of the absurd. On page 98 he deals with the Minchas Elozor, who was a vehement opponent of Zionism. He was vehemently critical in general, actually, when it came to protecting the Torah. And nobody was beyond his scrutiny. Here are some quotes:
“ ’Whoever becomes an leader in this world becomes evil in the next world’ (Rambam, Tur). The world explains this to refer to the lay leaders, like presidents of congregations, which in many congregations this is true. But if we’re going to talk about our generation and our days, it can be referring to the Rabbonim as well, unfortunately …” – Divrei Torah III:47
“ ‘Whevener there are Reshaim in the world, there is suffering in the world. Who are Reshaim? The robbers.’ (Sanhedrin 113b). This is referring to the fake leaders who “rob” the truth form the people, because they act like Tzadikim and act for their own benefit. They prevent the redemption. Hashem should save us from them.” – ibid 58
“There are Rebbes (“admorim”) who are fakers, they make believe they are Tzadikim, are meyached yichudim, and dress like Rebbes or rabbis. This is all the doing of the Satan in order to bring the public (followers) to sin” – ibid V:82
“The reason why Jews in Germany can learn heresy and still remain religious is because they are like the people who are immune to poison because they are used to drinking it and so have so much of it in their system. So too the German Jews, they are soused to the poison of secularism since they are habituated in it from childhood little by little, that this does not hurt them. That is why they are immune to the bad influence of the Mizrachi and the Agudah as well.” – ibid IV:93
“’And you shall love your neighbor like yourself’ – this means, just like there are different parts of you that you care about more – for instance, you care more about heaving your head than your feet – so too we love the Tzadikim more than we do others. The lowest level is those who are like our fingernails, also part of us, but we clip them off and discard them. These people too are like fingernails that need to be separated from the rest of us, and this is for the benefit of Klall Yisroel.” – ibid II:39
manitou (…continued):
Anyway, the following is R. Teichtel’s explanation of why The Minchas Elozor was against “Yishuv HaAretz”. I promise I am not making this up:
First, he tries to establish that whether the redemption will come miraculously or slowly and naturally depends on whether Moshiach’s coming will be because we “deserve it” (“zachah”) – in which case it will be miraculous, or because Hashem sent it to us despite our not deserving it, in which case it will be natural. Then he says, quote:
“And with this we have an open response to the entire objection of our master and rebbi, the holy scholar, the Minchas Elozor ZT”L of Munkatch, regarding being involved with building the land. For I myself was one of his group, and I knew that his entire objection was base don the fact that the redemption is going to come miraculously, not naturally … But his honor remains intact, for he on his high level believed that the entire world is on the high level where they deserve Moshiach, like he was. But the truth is that this last generation, unfortunately, not deserving of Moshiach, and therefore the redemption will come couched in natural methods.” – Aim Habanim Semechah p.98
I promise I did not make that up. In other words, the Minchas Elozor mistakenly and naively thought the whole world was Tzadikim like he was, but in reality he didn’t understand that the world doesn’t really deserve Moshiach.
Now never mind how R. Teichtel decided he can judge the world and decide whether they deserve Moshiach or not; never mind that he has not one Halachic shred of evidence to back up this position of his; but to say that the Minchas Elozor naively looked at the whole world as much more righteous than they actually are, as deserving of redemption when in fact they don’t deserve it, is beyond ludicrous. It’s downright absurd, and for anyone who knows anything about the Minchas Elozor, totally dishonest. If there was one person in the past hundred years who we would say is not guilty of over rating the world, it could very well be the Minchas Elozor. If he’s not first on the list, he’s second.
And to attribute such an attitude to him of all people, is nothing less than the stuff of la la land. And that’s besides the arrogance of saying that he is more able to discern how deserving Klal Yisroel is of greeting Moshiach than the Minchas Elozor. This is a Halachic treatise? Nope. Sorry. It would have been one thing if they would have left it as a sermon or a drush, but because the Zionists don’t really have any serious Halachic backing, they took this sefer and made it something of an icon. It’s a big pity.
BTW, R. Teichtel’s sefer comes without any Haskomos (approbations) form anybody. But he did want Haskomos, so what he did was – I am not making this up either, I promise – he took Haskomos out of another sefer, and printed them in his sefer, saying that the Haskomos would certainly apply to his sefer too, since the two seforim generally say the same things. But none of the rabbis of his time – not a single one – wrote him a haskama.
Another note: Aim HaBanim Semechah speaks basically about building the land. The topic of creating a sovereign state – which was the major objection to Zionism – is almost completely ignored. Perhaps this is what the Lubavitcher Rebbe meant (told to the author’s son, quoted in the introduction, p. 21 ) when he told the son of author to “publicize that your father was a G-d fearing Jew who was far away from Zionism”. I would think this is because in his sefer he never argues in favor of a Jewish State, but rather in favor of building up the land.
More like the charedim like akuperma (not everyone charedi is opposed to listening to chazal and learning a livelihood… funny that those who don’t follow the dictates of chazal are called charedi…) are afraid that if they do participate in voting people will even have less tolerance for the derelict of civic duties.
Is living off public support in accord with the torah? Since when did convincing masses to avoid working and instead spend all day learning, become something that is supported in the Torah? If you want to quote Gadol A or B who supports this, then how are you different than a Reform who quotes their Gadol A or B who supports radical innovations to the traditions we have from Chazal?
What is simple, is that post the holocaust, many had the realization that such a klap from Hashem must mean something was wrong… Perhaps it caused some to reevaluate some of these positions. Others, like the Satmar Rebbe (yes, we know he is the greatest ohev yisroel ever as well) decided to hunker down in their past opinions. Sadly today, we see the failure of the Satmar system, which in NY is the primary driver of the tremendous anti-yeshiva movement of the NYS Education Department. Sticking with a worldview that holds back their followers from being productive members of society, and instead being some of the largest takers of welfare, against the dictates of chazal, has clearly led to a full scale attack on all Yeshivos, even those that do meet their obligations to provide the necessary skills in this day and age for their students to go on and get jobs if they choose.
FYI, the Satmar Rebbe calls zionism avoda zarah… Which raises an interesting issue that how can anyone who claims to follow the satmar rebbe reside in Eretz Yisroel or even visit there.
The obvious conclusion is all these followers of the satmar rebbe are foolish folks who lack consistency in any sort of dedication to Judaism and should not be taken seriously as bearers of authentic jewish tradition.
Reb Eliezer:
I think Joseph addressed well that AHS is not relevant here.Regarding the Mahara”M Schick (from the Chasam Sofer) that you quoted, though, he is very obviously NOT discussing voting in Zionist elections because he died close to a century before the Zionist state was even founded.
Furthermore, his sevara there obviously has zero to do with Zionist elections. First of all, much of Klal Yisrael, B”H, lives outside of Zionist rule. Whereas in “biblical” Egypt, it was everyone.
In addition, Reshaim voting in Zionist elections vs. liHavdil, tzaddikim who do not vote, has nothing to do with the Mahara”M Schick (from the Chasam Sofer) discussing having children and literally keeping Klal Yisrael going to the next generation.
In other words, regardless of who does and does not vote in Zionist elections, Klal Yisrael will definitely continue to the next generation, ad beas goel tzedek BB”A.
Avi K:
1. Actually, appealing to international bodies against Israel could, in fact, actually be a tremendous mitzva, if, for example, doing so saves Jews from Zionist shmad or saves Jewish lives.2. Their “fighting spirit” is far, far better used in a milchamta shel Torah in the Bais Midrash, not in the Zionist army whose specific purpose is to shmad them, to take the Torah away from them, in addition to “treating them to extreme doses of the big three cardinal sins (particularly, but not all limited to, if they were in actual combat units).
3. “HaTekufa HaGedola” contains “falsifications of fact”, as Zvi Weinman wrote both in a journal and in his book Mikatowitz Ad Hei B’Iyar (pp. 134-136). (From truetorahjews, about half-way through the article).
link removedMay G d bless them. Even if theyre in the minority. The truth always prevails.
frumtd:
The Zionists require Jews under their rule to be shmaded and subjected to the big three cardinal sins, in their indoctrination camp of Zionism known as the IDF, as a pre-condition to employment.One need only observe all the “Chareidi”-owned and run businesses everywhere else in the world, including Satmar, to realize that our religious brethren in Israel are being denied the ability to work unless they choose to subject themselves to Zionist shmad.
Regarding “reevaluating their positions” after the Holocaust, this is almost an heretical statement. The correct lesson to take from the Holocaust is how it fit in with the rules of schar viOnesh (and if we can’t figure that out, then we’ll have to wait for Eliyahu HaNavi to tell us BB”A), not how to turn Klal Yisrael into yet another Gentile nation, as was and is the goal of Zionism.
In terms of how to deal with the State once it, very unfortunately, came into being, there were gedolim who held that the tactics of dealing with the problem of Zionism had to change given this reality. But that Zionism was and is a tremendous problem for Jews has never changed.
frumtd:
The Satmar Rav was one of many gedolim who called belief in Zionism what it very obviously is: heresy and idolatry. Unlike those other gedolim, he also wrote multiple sefarim explaining the whole topic (rather brilliantly and comprehensively, at that – not that my opinion is worth anything).Your academic question of how, in light of that, one could visit E”Y, is not really a question (because visiting and even living in E”Y is not at all innately Zionistic). But even if it were a question, that would not therefore lead to your “obvious conclusion”.
The much more “obvious conclusion” is that one who has likely never even opened a VaYoel Moshe and whose knowledge of Zionism is limited to popular propaganda, Zionist and otherwise, should probably not be be drawing any “obvious conclusion”.
HaKatan,
1. Yosef ben Mattiahu also thought that. So did the Judenrats. Calling in other nations to decide an internal dispute led to the Churban.
2. Nonsense. In fact, defending EY is a war of Torah. Rav Ovadia said that without the IDF there would be no yeshivot. Rav Shlomo Zalman said that when he wanted to visit kivrei tzadkim he went to the military cemetery on Har Herzl.
3. More nonsense. That is a site of supporters of Iran.
4. Just out of curiosity, what do your gedolim say about Internet use? In Jerusalem they have signs saying that life is happy without it.due to the fact that it is assur gammur to have a medina lfi the gemara in kesubos, the mitzvah of yishuv eretz yisroel no longer exists and it is completely assur to have anything to do with it.
Satmerers are able to live in israel bc theres nothing wrong with the land itself, only having a medina, so if u have nothing to do with the medina then you arent doing anything wrong. This doesnt take a genius to see, people just lookin to hate at satmar or anyone who doesnt share their exact hashkafos. I got news for you guys though, having different shitas does in fact exist! whoa! what! i thought that was impossible! no way! if someone follows the satmar rebbe then thats his mesorah, who are you tell him hes wrong. wanna know the difference between the satmar rebbe and a reform rabbi? the reform rabbi is a koifer bikur and the satmar rebbe was of the gedolei hador
The mitzvah no longer exists? How can you be oker something from the Torah?
the moshiach is coming soon; what else would you conclude from the number of learned comments. haShem Yeracheaim.
Sometimes I wonder if there are leftist secret agents whose job is to discredit Torah Jews.
“The mitzvah no longer exists? How can you be oker something from the Torah?”
Lol Neturei Karta’s entire raison d’etre is to be oker the Torah
Takes3: Apparently NKChossid612 was already oker the mitzvah of yishuv EY, hence 612, and is a chossid of the Iran-loving, terrorist-hugging infamous Neturei Karta. These are the ones who will have to make a din cheshbon for all the terrible chillul Hashem they have caused, as well as having the chutzpah to protest against the gadol hador at the time, Harav Hagaon Rav Shteinman. ztkl.
wBanning voting is proposterous. Do the Eidah Chareidis expect a bigger fight against the gov’t, and therefore can institute Hafgonos on K’ Shabbos? Voting enables voices to be heard, and more importantly for the frum community, protection of our sacred laws.
It’s amazing. As the French say, plus ca change, plus c’est les meme choses – the more things change, the more they stay the same. I’ve been pretty quiet here for a long time, not having as much time to interact. but this caught my eye, because Rav Teichtal’s sefer – the sefer of a Gadol who was not saved from the Shoah-with its svaros and innumerable sources and the emotion of one seeking HKBH’s rachamim in a terrible time, has made a huge impression on me. But I see that nothing has changed. Joseph is up to his old tricks. Something nagged at me in reading his long winded reply, so I did a little checking. His post is plagiarized – without attribution even to the site, let alone the author, from his old standby, the frumteens website, indexed and posted at frumteendex on Sunday, August 27, 2006. Aside from the judgementalism leveled against the Kodosh R’Teichtal HYD, Isn’t it ossur to do what you just did, Joseph? I’ve been told that R’Moshe Feinstein considered plagiarism an issur Mideoraisa. I’m looking for the source as I write.
If you want to have a discussion of the halachic validity of R’Teichtal’s work, it is valid to say he was in the minority of Eastern European Gedolim of the pre war period. So saying his sefer isn’t halachic, while incorrect in my personal view, could be true, but using that logic one would also have to say that minority views in mishna and gemara or in disputes between rishonim or achronim that aren’t the ultimate halacha are also “not halachic”. Are you prepared to say that? Sounds disrespectful to me, but I guess I’m not well versed enough in the halachos of respecting talmidei chachomim to know for sure.
But to say it is not serious? This great man wrote from the depths of the gehenom of the ghetto, pleading for yeshuas hashem, and you, Joseph, in your holiness, wisdom and experience have the temerity to say it is not serious? I’ll be sure to be mispallel for you this RH so that you might in some way earn HKBH’s forgiveness for this haughtiness.
May HKBH have rachmonus on his children, and may we witness the conclusion of the geulah bimheiro biyomeinu.
Thanks, I’m surprised I missed that
Ha ha. This leap from the Maharam Shiq to his point is pretty typical for that Sefer.
He was a Talmid Chacham, and he probably meant it seriously, but it’s hard to read the Sefer seriously.
Regardless of whether Zionism or Israel’s existence violates the Torah, the fact is that there is nothing that can be done today to undo what was done. We are about to get a unity government led by secularists that will likely exclude the religious parties. If you did not vote, then you are supporting a secular government that will do things to undermine Judaism and the learning of Torah.
So now Lieberman is demanding:
1. Army conscription law;
2. Civil marriages;
3. Easier conversions;
4. Kosel compromise bill;
5. Core education requirements for Hareidi sector; and
6. More chillul Shabbos.At least you won’t have to, C”V, vote.
Well done, folks.
The same people who by shitta do not vote in Zionist elections (and they are halachicly required to continue practicing and upholding that shitta as per the psak of their rabbonim) also will refuse to enlist in the Zionist army and refuse to teach their children Israeli core education requirements.
Even if the Zionist pass a law requiring it. Does anyone imagine it won’t be ignored and disregarded? I think everyone knows, especially the secular Zionist and lawmakers, that it’ll be ignored.
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