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Whats the Halachah?
Yes.
As bad? No. From what I understand, they try to use legitimate Halacha to justify it. Does that mean it should ever be done? Of course not.
Reform also started out by justifying their actions under “legitimate halacha”.
They are much worse. Almost nobody frum is going to just become reform, but these people can catch people and eventually (like the early conservatives) they will all go off.
If the first consevatives would have just become christians intead of making believe they are following halacha, many less people would have gone off.
Shmoel: No, they really didn’t. They denied basic tenets of Judaism, as did Conservative. You raise a good point Rikki, but I don’t think that we can be the ones to make that judgment call. I think all we can say is that it’s not for any normatively Orthodox Jew and leave the people who do this to their own devices.
What do egalitarians do?
If it’s what I am thinking of, they let women lead Kabbalas Shabbos and Pesukei D’zimra and get Aliyos.
shmoel: Actually, they didn’t.
Sam2: Consevative didn’t start out denying basic tenets of Judaism either. They started off with “s’iz shver tzu bleiben ah yid” and went down hill from there.
Also, egalitarian minyanim let women do everything, not just kabbalas shabbos and pesukei d’zimra.
So an egalitarian minyan is a minyan without a mechitza, where the women count toward the minyan and can do all the roles?
Itche: Conservative denied the Mesora and claimed that any “Rabbi” ever has the same power as Chazal.
And apparently we are discussing two different types of egalitarian Minyanim.
Egalitarian minyan = con-servative. Ossur lemehadrin.
“Orthodox” women’s minyan – women only minyan – ask your rov – best not to discuss here.
Why is it best not to discuss here?
Why is this any different than any other halachic queston? Ask your your rabbi if its ok.
P.S. If he says it is ok, get yourself another rabbi!
Sam2: Conservative did all those things, but they only developed a doctrine after they broke with Orthodoxy. They started off as orthodox rabbis who looked for kulos to grow their congregations. Then they started using illegitimate kulos to the point that they had to define a movement to justify them. From there, it was a short jump to the “committee on Jewish law and standards” that serves as the Conservative sanhedrin today.
And yes, apparently we are talking about two different kinds of egalitarian minyanim. I was talking about the conservative kind that bills themselves as “fully egalitarian services led by men and women.” You seem to be talking about similar groups who just don’t have the guts to go all the way.
Reb Ber: So Creedmoorer chassidim won’t go to women’s minyanim because there’s a chshash heter?
I thought Conservative started out as a breakoff from Reform, when they thought Reform went too far off. (Which is why they are called “Conservative”, compared to Reform.)
Reform initially did start off using the shulchan aruch however they did things which was not done by mainstream orthodoxy .They prayed in a different language and played the organ on shabbas in shul which tech is allowed(shvus d’svus lmitzvah which they took much further).The dramatic decline in observance was very quick and then they totally disregarded the Shulchan Aruch completely.
sam4: Which is the same thing these egalitarians are doing.
tickle toe eitus: Correct,it could be that it may be halchacilly correct, but since the mainstream doesn’t do it it cannot be done.This was discussed by the Chasam Sofer and many others.
I’m sure Popa is wondering how they can count non-Jews for a minyan!
Conservative was a breakaway from Reform. At their convention in the 1880’s, the left-wing Reform wanted to demonstrate a total break with Orthodoxy nd tradition so as a surprise , the waiters at dinner brought out pork, shellfish and othe pure treif foods. The “conservative” Reform members felt they had one too far and walked out and started Conservative Judaism.
Egalitarian Minyan; As Bad As Reform?
Is running in front of a car and getting hit as bad as having a heart attack?
Is having a stroke as bad as having cancer?
Is jumping 4 stories as bad as having termonal cancer?
Does anyone here belong to a church? I thought we’re it aseres yimei tshuva
I’m sure Popa is wondering how they can count non-Jews for a minyan!
I can’t think of a funny reply, but this is noted.
tickle toe itus: They started off as a breakoff from orthodoxy that tried to conserve (hence the name) as much as they felt was possible. The orthodox showed them how much really was possible.
sam4321: Are you talking about American reform, German reform, or the Hungarian neologs? All three had completely different origins.
Itche: What lesschumras described I believe to be correct.
In the begining the Conservative religion was simply an Americanized orthodoxy similiar to the Young Israel movement. Shabbos, kashrus etc were not abandoned till later years. At one time in the 20’s or 30’s there were discussions to merge YU and JTS.
Over the years they have strayed further and further in a failed attempt at self perpetuation of a spiritually bankrupt religion, only to lose their members to orthodoxy and reform. There is no place for a middle ground.
Egalitarian temples do not differentiate between men and women and have women “rabbis” and cantors and of course mixed choirs.
Soloman Shechter would not recognize what he faith has become.
I am talking about the birth of reform which took place in germany.
Some of the people who started OU were from JTS.
Do they have a mechitza or not?
It’s hard to believe it today but there were chashuv European rabbanim who ame to the States before 1920 who actually joined JTS. The final break between JTS and YU came over taharas hamishpacha and one other issue.
It’s hard to believe it today but there were chashuv European rabbanim who ame to the States before 1920 who actually joined JTS.
And now let’s have a Saul Lieberman thread! (Who read the book about it by that guy mark shapiro or something? I did.)
Popa- Me too, great read. Have you read his book on the Seridei Eish? Not shayich.
Professor Marc Shapiro’s book on the Seridei Aish is excellent.
I checked and you guys were right about the founding of the conservative movement. I made the mistake of confusing the attitudes of the members with the origins of the leadership.
JTS was once Orthodox.
There’s a great story about Saul Lieberman talking to Rav Soloveitchik about higher criticism of the mishnah.
You sure JTS was Orthodox?
Yes, for a short time after its founding. After it became conservative, it retained Orthodox faculty for quite a while. The uncle of one of my chavrusas in yeshiva was good friends with a former Professor of Mishnah from JTS who he describes as a “big talmid chochom.”
What is your source that JTS was Orthodox?
No, I haven’t read the sridei eish one.
I have to say, I didn’t like the tone, but it was a great read.
Some of the people who started OU were from JTS.
I think you’re confusong the Agudath Harabonim (Union of Orthodox Rabbis of the United States and Canada) with the OU (Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America).
Popa – I can understand what you mean about the tone. However if you can get past that, the Seridei Eish book is a real page turner. It’s worth reading just for the footnotes. I was so fascinated that when I was done I went straight to the store and bought a Seridei Eish and started reading! Ha. Btw the name of the book is “Between the Yeshiva World and Modern Orthodoxy.” Sounds like it was written by a lurker of the CR…
Originally, the OU was formed by the same rabbis who created the JTS. Henry Pereira Mendes helped create both the OU and JTS. Rabbi Dr. Bernard Drachman was president of the Orthodox Union and professor at the Jewish Theological Seminary.
Conservative Judaism was a break-off from Reform Judaism after it came to a head in 1883, at the “Treifa Banquet” at the Highland House entertainment pavilion where shellfish and other non-kosher dishes were served at the graduating class of Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati.
In the 20’s, the JTS and RIETS were both having a building campaign. Donors wanted to know why they had to support two rabbinical schools, it’s not as if there were that many budding rabbis in America at the time; why couldn’t the two just merge? So Rabbi Dr. Bernard Revel got up YU’s parlor meeting and gave an impassioned speech about how we are different from them. They manufacture rabbis, we learn Torah lishma! Believe it or not, that night he raised over $750,000, a huge amount in those days, if I got my stories straight (it’s in his biography).
To most of the commenters here: Not all Conservative synagogues are egalitarian. It is up to each individual one to decide for themselves if this is what they wish to do. They have definitely NOT abandoned kashruth. I don’t know what would give you that idea. You have them mixed up with the Reform movement.
Even the Conservatives that purport to adhere to kashrus, are not maintaining a true kashrus. They are avoiding certain ingredients (i.e. pork, etc.), but are far from having a kosher kitchen or using things that came in contact with non-kosher or were slaughtered with correct kashrus, etc.
To those who are not aware:
Minyan gal is a good friend of the CR, and goes to a conservative synagogue. I don’t think we need to debate this, it will not do anyone any good.
The perushim fought the tzedukim tooth and nail. Rav S. R. Hirsch said there most be a complete break with no cooperation with non-O denominations.
Yichusdik: I think you are wrong about how the Perushim historically related to other sectarian groups, but your point about Conservative should be accepted. There is a huge spectrum of Conservative Judaism. Many “Conservative”s are completely Shomer Halacha and there are many that have no relation to authentic Judaism whatsoever. Lumping them all into one group is foolish to say the least.
Many “Conservative”s are completely Shomer Halacha
You learn something new every day.
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