- This topic has 51 replies, 30 voices, and was last updated 1 month, 3 weeks ago by .
-
Posts
-
Does anyone know why some people don’t eat in a sukkah on Shemini Atzeres? Doesn’t the gemara say it’s obligatory?
I dont eat there. The pasuk says 7 days not 8.
Let me ask you, if you do eat there because of s’feika d’yoma that shmini atzeres could be the 7th day of sukkos then why do you not make a bracha when you eat there? And why dont you shake arba minim on shmini atzeres for the same reason?
Good point Shticky.
Shticky guy, the Gemara, tur, shulchan aruch, and later poskim all rule one should eat in the sukkah on shemini atzeres.
I heard bishaim Rav Moishe ZT”L that even tho minhag yisrael kedoshim, it is kidai for a/o who has the minhag not to eat in the sukkah(myslf included) to change.
Shticky brought up some good points. I wonder what the answer is.
Hilchasa yesuvei yasvinan, bruchi lo mevarchinan.
There is a simple answer to your question. To take the dalet minim or make a bracha on the sukkah would be a zilzul (disgrace) to the independant yom tov of shmini atzeres beacause you are clearly declaring the day to be sukkos in some way. On the other hand, eating in the sukkah is not considered a zilzul because people will eat outdoors from time to time. Therefore, doing so does not necesarilly indicate that we are still holding in sukkos. (pe’amim shusukaso areiva alav.)
That being said, when living in a cold climate (i.e. Poland or Russia) some did consider it a zilzul to eat in the sukkah because no one would ever eat outddors in such conditions if not for the mitzvah of sukkah. Hence the minhag of many communities was born to not eat in the sukkah on shmini atzeres.
The response to Shticky’s points is that we don’t do anything that would be an actual ????? to Shemini Atzeres (such as making a bracha on the Sukkah, or taking a Lulav). But eating in a Sukkah is something that could conceivably be done on a regular day (even if it’s not Sukkos), therefore we eat in there due to sfeika d’yoma.
I dont eat there. The pasuk says 7 days not 8.
Good point shticky, I always wondered why my father stuck his tefillin on his nose
The answer to shticky guy’s points is that we take the lulav and esrog for the rest of the days medirabanan. Medioraysah we only take it one day. Shaking the lulav and esrog on shemini atzeres is a gezeirah legezeirah. So we don’t do it.
We don’t make a bracha on the sukkah because we also do things as shemini atzeres and it would be tarti desasri to make a bracha.
“Good point shticky, I always wondered why my father stuck his tefillin on his nose”
Probably that’s where his forehead is. He must look funny.
Jothar, shaking Lulav is not a Gezeira; it is a Takana. Second, We aren’t making a Gezeira Legzeira, they are merely bumping. Similar to Pachos Pachos in a Karmelis.
Many people have the minhag of making kiddush in the sukkah on Shemini Atzeres, just in case it actually is still sukkos (but without the bracha on sukkah, just in case it isn’t). There is a 50-50 chance that Shemini Atzeres is really Hoshana Rabbah. Once we have a Beis Din this won’t be an issue, but at present we’re using a calendar derived from calculations so it might be off a day.
Everyone has a minhag.
The Maharil brings down that you are “mechuyav” to sit in the sukka on Shmini Atzeres “afilu l’hashmi’a shmu’os” which really refers to learning or “talking in Torah.”
Minhagim vary but that is the basis. So “Shtiky,” check what your father/gfather’s minhag.
There is no problem in sitting in the sukka all year round–just no brocho.
So there is no issur of sitting in the sukka on Shmini Atzeres. Insofar as Arba Minnim, there is a problem of a “tarta d’sasra” so even though it is be a “yom tov sheni” of Hoshana Rabbo, we end up with a mitzvos d’rabbonon (lulav, hoshanas) which cannot override the d’oraisa of Shmini Atzeres, so we end with a Shev v’al Ta’asse for those d’rabbonon’s from Succos.
Have a wonderful yom tov.
We sit in the Sukkah on S”A because of Safek DiOryta. At least that’s how it started.
But Lulav is only D’Rabanan after the first day of Sukkot. Safek D’Rabanan LiKulah (especially for something that could be muktsa).
MDG, the same rason it is not Muktza on Succos, although it is a Derabanan, it would not be Muktza on Shmini Atzeress, had it been a Mitzva. The main reason is as was posted above: it is a Bizayon of Yom Tov.
Akuperma, there is absolutely no Safek of which day is Yom Tov. If it would be a Safek, we would have big problems with rollover Sfekos, and Yom Kippur. It is a Takana that we should have a system in place in case we lose the calendar.
HaLeiVi: So where does the idea of “s’feika d’yoma” come from?
@Dr. Seuss:
The original takana of two days Yom Tov was because of a Safeik – in the times of the Beis Hamikdash, it actually was a question which day was really Yom Tov – and we keep that takana, even though it’s not really a safeik nowadays.
shticky made some very bad points
This is because he tried to ask you instead of asking the bfeirush gemara
Greg, that makes me wonder why we have two days Shavuos, since during the two months after Rosh Chodesh Nissan the Shalichim would be able to reach anywhere.
So why not in Eretz Yisroel?
HaLeiVi: Even when there actually is a S’feika D’yoma they wouldn’t keep two days Yom Kippur.
That’s always intrigued me as well; I’ve been told that the answer is simply ?? ???? – once there are two days for some Yomim Tovim, we do it for all of them (except Yom Kippur).
Because in Eretz Yisroel they never had to keep two days (because they knew, through a system of fire signals, which day was the correct one for Yom Tov). The exception was Rosh Hashana, and even in Eretz Yisrael Rosh Hashana is two days.
Gregaaron: Your response to Stuck is not quite accurate.
ask your l.o.r.
btw, R’Tzadok hakohen has a entire sefer dedicated to this question, to defend the custom although it is oppisite the the halacha.
Don’t know other people’s reason, but it’s minhag mishpachas Rashi not to eat in the sukkah on Shmini Atzeres. We just make kiddush.
A sheep without a spleen: lol but I go by mesoira so I wouldnt have that issue.
Those asking how I can go against a gemara: We do not pasken from gemaras but from Shulchan Aruch, and if my minhag is different to SA then I ask my Rav who will tell me whether or not to follow my mesoira. (Note Rav not Rosh Yeshiva).
Those who posted that eating in the sukka is not a zilzul in shmini atzeres/could be done on a non-sukkos day: Why does nobody sleep in the sukka on shmini atzeres?
(From Artscroll Book on S.A)
A. If its Sukkos you must live in the sukkah
B. If its S.A sitting in the sukkah is belittling the holiday.
4. Mordechai/Ravyah- Not saying the bracha alleviates the issue of belittling S.A b/c by not saying one you indicate that you are just in the sukkah b/c of a doubt which is not considered belittling.
5. Basically:
A. Sitting in the sukka for both meals is based on this idea that just not saying the bracha makes it not a zilzul.
A. You say Shecheyanu at night for S.A so how can you say that in the sukkah.
B. Its reasonable to say a person would eat in the sukkah if not obligated but not to sleep.
8. The Gra and others (see Shar Hatzion there) say to sleep in the sukkah
Shticky: Here’s the point. If you really have a rabbi that says you can, that’s fine (I mean a rabbi, not just minhag because I believe many gedolei hador have said that you should go against your father’s minhag for this) But stop with the geshikte questions “the pasuk says 7” “we don’t take lulav” “we don’t sleep”. We follow halacha, not saichel.
ASwaS: Halacha is Seichel. It’s just a matter of knowing what Halachic ideas to apply in which cases.
“We follow halacha, not saichel. “
The above statement is nominated as “Foot-In-Mouth Halachic Argument of the Year.”
I’d hate to see what the non frum could do with this one.
Old man: That statement is completely correct. And I don’t care what the non-frum say.
As it happens, halacha will always coincide with seichel. But not necessarily your seichel.
As is apparent from this exchange.
Torah Lo Bashamayim Hi. So our seichel is what decides halacha!! we can do whatever we want!!
What if it’s against every halacha sefer ever written
I do not make up random halachos you know! I follow an ancient minhag as do thousands of people across the globe. Eg Taamei Minhagim even goes as far as to write ??? ??????? ???? ???? *????* ????? ?????.
Another seicheldiger question: You should only daven??? ? on ?? ???? ????? after finishing with the sukka, not on ?????? ????.
Sam2:
How was gregaaron’s response inaccurate?
Seagul47 my father, gfather gg father and gggfather all eat/ate in the house besides Kiddush on Shemini Atzeres day which they ate in the sukka and then said the ???? ???? for the ?? ?????.
Does anyone have an answer to my question on Geshem or should I declare it a ???? ?
Shticky Guy -“Another seicheldiger question: You should only daven??? ? on ?? ???? ????? after finishing with the sukka, not on ?????? ????.”
Now I get to play Shtick – I’ll answer your question with a question. Why don’t we Daven Geshem on Sukkos instead of S.A. -because the Mishna says “Oobchag Nidonim Al Hamayim”? Chag is Sukkos!
Health We cannot daven for rain while having a chiyuv to eat in the sukka. So we wait until AFTER we are no longer mechuyav to eat in the sukka before davening for rain. This is why we do not say Geshem on Sukkos. And that was my exact question. If we are mechuyav to eat in the sukka on shemini atzeres then surely we should wait until simchas torah before davening Geshem. But davening on SA seems to support the minhag of NOT eating in the sukka on SA. Please answer that.
is saying mashiv ha ruach “asking” for rain?
or is it a praise of Hashem alone?
(as opposed to saying v’sain tal u matar.)
Shticky Guy -“Health We cannot daven for rain while having a chiyuv to eat in the sukka. So we wait until AFTER we are no longer mechuyav to eat in the sukka before davening for rain. This is why we do not say Geshem on Sukkos. And that was my exact question. If we are mechuyav to eat in the sukka on shemini atzeres then surely we should wait until simchas torah before davening Geshem. But davening on SA seems to support the minhag of NOT eating in the sukka on SA. Please answer that.”
Yes, this was the answer I was thinking of. But you took it too far. We really should Daven for Geshem on Sukkos, but we don’t want it to rain. But on SA there is No D’oraysa to sit in the Sukkah, at the most a D’rabbonon, so we won’t delay Davening for Geshem any longer.
Hey, psst, listen, dont tell anyone but confidentially, strictly between you and me, I’ll tell you something else that Shticky does. Or, more to the point, does not do. (Please do NOT read this if you are faint hearted). But… Shhh… I do not leig ?????? on ??? ????? !!!
Shticky Guy
Another seicheldiger question: You should only daven??? ? on ?? ???? ????? after finishing with the sukka, not on ?????? ????.
POSTED 1 WEEK AGO #
We are davening for rain in E”Y
Hey! Am yisrael! Welcome back! So glad you’re here!
Welcome back AYC. Mashiv Haruach and Tefillas Geshem are not asking for rain (Gemara in the beginning of Ta’anis). They are just mentioning the Koach of Hashem. However, it is inappropriate to mention such a Koach at a time when rain is a Siman K’lalah. Even if you sit in the Sukkah on S”A in CHU”L, it’s not a Siman K’lalah if it rains. Therefore, we start saying Mashiv Haruach on S”A even in CHU”L.
Thank you so much, m22 and Sam2!
For a comprehensive treatment of the Succah-Shemini Atzeres issue, please read the chapter on this topic in “???? ?????? ????”
by Professor Eric Zimmer of Bar-Ilan University. In it you will see that the confusion that exists today has existed since the times of the Geonim and maybe even since the times of the Amoraim. One of the Rishonim used to eat in the house on Leil Shemini Atzeres, only to return to the succah the following day!
To avoid this machlokes altogether we don’t eat at all on shmini atzeres. This has the added benefit of being able to be mekayaim the mitzva of eating stuffed cabbage leil simchas torah litayavon.
We have a French Cafe (not Jewish) inside the “Eruv” which has several tables outside. Sunday evening they were empty. We ate inside. Monday after davening I walked by and several people were eating outside. Hence, the day Seudah was in the Sukkah.
Back to the French Cafe: My best guess is that the Eastern Europe branch moves all the tables inside by mid September. The outside tables would always be busy in Bavel, unless it was actually raining.
Eating inside on SA is mentioned in the gemara.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.