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Wolf, this thread is about teenage girls sitting at a Shabbes table with bochurim (unmarried boys).
If you’re a bochur, then discussing your teenage nieces, is relevant. (You could marry your niece). However if you’re a married man, then this discussion is not about YOU.
Wolf, this thread is about teenage girls sitting at a Shabbes table with bochurim (unmarried boys).
The OP made no such qualification.
Or is it your contention that it’s perfectly acceptable for me to eat at a table with teenage girls?
The Wolf
you guys are so krum. every single yeshiva bochur is definitely thinking about a girl sitting at the same table. its unbelieveable that anyone in their right mind would say its not a problem because “hashem created families with both genders”. whether its asur is one issue, buts its for sure not right, and any bochur who is concerned for his ruchniyus shouldnt b going to meals where there r teenage girls who arent his relatives. oh, by the way, shmoozing w cousins or aunts is also assur
zincase1- where exactly does it say that it’s assur??
Shmuzing b’derech chiba is assur with any woman, even if shes related. So shmuzing with your cousin or aunt could technically be assur. For your aunt, though, it shouldnt normally be problematic
Shmuzing b’derech chiba is assur with any woman, even if shes related.
So, let’s see…
I told Eees this week that I love her. One sin.
I mentioned to my mother how much I love her. Another sin.
I did the same for my grandmother as well. A third sin.
I even told my sister that I love her. A fourth sin.
As for my teenage daughter, I actually kisser her, so that’s surely a one-way ticket to the worst possible punishments in the afterlife.
The Wolf
(And before anyone jumps on me, the poster said “any woman” without any qualifications — and specifically included relatives with no exceptions mentioned.)
wolf- lol!!!
my question is why would a single guy even want to sit at a table with teenage girls?? If your a frum erliche person it just doesn’t pus to do so.
StanleyC: I don’t think you understand what “Schmoozing Derech Chibah” means.
real-brisker
Iced Coffee
“Half – Who are you fooling?”real-brisker
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Half – Are you not; Qtpie, IceCream:::::::::, mentsch., brichtcoloeredkettlers………?
real-brisker
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Mods – In conjunction with my previous post in the LH Thread. –>Half = “Qtpie and Crew”. Ones gotta be blind not to be able to pick up a Troll’er..
Mods, can you get this guy off my back please. I don’t appreciate the abuse and the absurd accusations.
Half – You still haven’t answered me.
Real brisker- I wrote a response to you earlier and I’m not too sure why it was deleted…
I only have 1 username. so I don’t know how you came to that aronious conclusion.
corey; nothing to ask forgiveness for… you havn’t caused any machlokes between anyone nor have you done anyting wrong, hurtful, or nasty.
real-brisker; there is really no reason to try and “bad mouth” me in that way. not to mention the massive offense you have caused by assuming that I would behave as such. I forgive you and I honestly don’t wish to cause anymore rift than what has already been done overhere… I should hope you didn’t mean any harm in your FALSE accusations.-Sometimes people don’t realise the ramifications of thier words. I guess if the human eye was preview to the other side of the tapestry they would realise that there is alot more out there than meets the human eye…
Half / QTpie – Uhu, Right.
Teenage Daughters should be forced to eat in the backyard, food can be passed to them through a window…problem solved…
real brisker- what makes you think my username is cute?? Is it my subtitle??
BTW: Mods thanks for my subtitle, I’d say it’s a shtikle random, but it’s CUTE anyway;)!! LOL!
If you want to let the satan decide shiduchim values and priorities and more, go ahead.
if you really think this’ll help the shidduch crisis- the torah also talks about being b’saddeh and marrying her. Think we should give that a try too?
hey core is back,
I think I shouldn’t comment what I want too as I can be bothered reading what was written over the last 3 pages!
coreytothecup
“Why woud the satan decide shidduchim? He dosnt seem to be doing a good job at solving the crisis??”
Allow me to explain. The way I understand it the satan wants Jewish people staying single. Getting married is the worst thing for him. That would bring more Yiddishe neshamos being born into the world into frum families which would be educated like their parents to serve Hashem and do mitvos. His job is to get people to avoid doing mitzvos at all costs. Or when he cant accomplish that, to get people to do as few mitzvos as possible or to do mitzvos in an unenthusiastic way…
The problem is deeper than boys taavos. If a family with teenage girls allows boys to eat with them on Shabbos, it will hurt the girls shidduch chances r”l. That should end the disussion.
WIY- see my last post.what you see as being a mitzvah done in a way too fool the satan could just as easily being the satan fooling you. thats when the sage advice of someone who knows him better then you , ie. a rov, should be asked. dont make cheshbonos that fool you.
@loyal jew- mayb in your circles but not in mine
@coreytothecup- complicated issue, most people would say boys but it really just depends on the person
The Torah says that a boy has far more tayvos for girls than girls have for guys. That’s why a guy has mitzvos shehasman grama to keep him busy all the time. Man is built to hunt, a woman’s Torah is her tnius…
I think that should answer your question, Corey…
Loyal Joe, why stop at hurting their shidduch chances? You can take it a step further and say that the girls who are at the same Shabbos table as boys should be assur to marry kohanim.
A friend of mine was telling me that they have alter bachurs, single men from time to time, usually they have families over though. She said that awhile ago her husband brought a bachur home that needed a place. Her husband had to ask the bachur to leave in a polite way of course when he started making convo with her daughters!!!
Personally I’m not against guys talking to girls, however talking and conversing are two different things!!
It could have been out of naivety, however I’d say people should train their sons what is nes talk and what is unnecessary talk. For example in the work place, it is vital, but stum at the sbs table is an entirely different story!! I was disappointed when I heard this..
Wolf, it is not the place to discuss those types of Halohos, Squeak just meant to show that the Loyal Jew’s statement is preposterous.
al tarbe sicha im ha’isha (avos 1-5). interesting that the same mishna discusses inviting guests to one’s home. see the end of the mishna for why it’s not good.
Isn’t there a passuk about this. Bachurim Ve’Gam Besulos, Zekainim em Ne’arim. Why the Ve’Gam between bachurim and besulos? Because they are not supposed to be together.
yup.thats a pshat from R shamshon raphael hirsch ztl I think.
Toi: It certainly is not R. Hirsch’s take on those words. Look at the context of the perek; it is about various creations in the world coming to appreciate and praise the greatness and complexity of how God runs the world. In particular, the perek focuses on how every type of creation should come to understand and appreciate the world from its own unique perspective, based on its own place in creation and role in the world (“Haleluhu kol m’lachav, haleluhu kol tziva’av”). On the words, “bachurim v’gam besulos, zekeinim im nearim,”
R. Hirsch explains that males and females must come to their own unique understanding of the world and God’s role, “independently, from their own knowledge,” because they have different perspective and different tasks to do. Thus, “zekeinim im nearim”: the boys can learn from the men, whose similar roles and greater life experience enables them to teach the younger generation.
The pasuk, taken as part of the perek has nothing to do with social interactions between men and women. At least not according to R. Hirsch.
whoops sorry. But i have seen this as a shat before. i just looked it up in artscroll. gasp. Quote-“Young men and also maidens.” The use of the word vigam,and also, is noteworthy.The Psalmist does not say that young men and women will be together,because such mingling would be immodest.” (Sefer Chassidim)
Toi: I had heard it before too, I was just pretty sure your attribution was mistaken. No intention to take away from the vort itself.
np. I like his pshat, too.
Every Shabbos, I eat at people’s houses with teenage daughters. I haven’t had the opportunity to eat a meal without anybody’s teenage daughters or sons for years. Let me tell you – the Divrei Torah are amazing (ly boring)!
Most likely the teenage girls are married, or engaged by now, so it’s not an issue.
When I was in yeshiva I remember I used to eat out all the time at a couple people’s houses who had girls around my age at the shabbos table. Some a couple years older and some a couple years younger. I had a real taiva for years for one of them and it is hard when you are a single guy to be put in that situation. She would always talk to me throughout the meal. It is a very BAD idea. If you are single you should start dating girls as soon as possible for the purpose of marriage. Don’t even speak or look at other girls when you are single if there is no or very little chance of marriage. It will only end up in serious heartbreak and disappointment. Trust me.
Ha no way, mazeltov! That is so nice to hear. I think for most though it only ends up in disappointment, lust and heartbreak because there is so much uncertainty. I can first hand testify to this. For every guy that gets engaged to a girl he randomly met at a shabbos table there are a thousand who don’t. If you are looking to get married, go to a shadchan. If you are looking to spend shabbos with other people and are single, do yourself a favor choose a house where you wont have taiva.
It’s very nice to talk about eating at houses with teenage daughters, but I don’t know any houses that married and had children, so I don’t know any houses with teenage daughters.
rebyidd23 I guess you’re not familiar with Rebbi Yossi: “???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???” 🙂
It’s a bad idea to get involved in those situations (eating with teenage girls and young daughters at the shabbos table).
While shidduchim can be made at the shabbos table, and we speak of setting up our daughters (u’le shadech habanot)in the zemer Mah Yedidut, in many cases, I don’t even think the parents are interested in introducing their daughters to these guys, in which case, these men are merely being teased and their libidos antagonized by what they can’t have.
I spend my shabbos meals with either bachelors, or with older folks. No hirhurim involved there, at all. I agree with Wasserman.
Go to many shadchanim, try out JWed (frumster) or Saw You At Sinai, or even try singles shabbatonim (although I think you’d have more hatzlacha with the websites or shadchanim).
If you make it perverted to talk to the opposite gender, only perverts will talk to the opposite gender.
It is sometimes necessary to talk to the opposite gender. For example, if there’s a female cashier who asks me if something is a return or an exchange, not that I make a habit of shopping or returning.
Just make sure there’s no actions or contact between u two that is derech chibah. If you aren’t sure if you can ensure that, don’t go.
We should all learn from Avrohom Avinu 2 things:
1- Never turn down an opportunity to perform hachnosas orchim.
2- Upon entering a society of perverts he put his wife in a box.
I personally would follow Avrohom Avinus example and put my teenage daughters in a box every time I have potentially perverted (hey ya never know) teenage boys over for a seuda however, its quite impractical since they can’t serve & clean up while in a box. Therefore I just insist they wear a loose fitting radid or hijab with only their eyes showing (I’d insist that they cover their eyes as well but I’m afraid they may spill the soup on my lap or miss some crumbs while sweeping.) They also wear surgical gloves lest the boys gaze at their etzba k’tana which chazal warn against. (The gloves are also helpful for cleaning up and doing dishes.)
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