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“No where in my post did it say anything about eating at the RY’s or Rebbi’s house.”
Are their teenaged daughters somehow different?
One of my roshei yeshiva would invite guys even though he had 2 daughters home. You would sit there literally afraid to turn your head away from him.
Do married couples never see each other in the Chassidish world (honest question)? Still, I think there’s a difference between making some type of Eitza Tovah and actually making a Takanah against something.
Maybe we can have separate worlds.
The truth is, is that it is NOT a ridiculous issue at all. The FACT is, is that boys at that age have raging hormones and whatever anyone says, they are going to be checking out the girls. That is a situation which we dont want to put boys in, why should they over an issur….If there is a situation where there is no choice, seating the boys and girls on the SAME side makes much more sense (obviousely with a buffer between them).
“You would sit there literally afraid to turn your head away from him.”
I have a neighbor whose guests feel the same way. That he is about 6′ 5″ probably has a lot to do with it.
Sam2, yes in most Chassidic circles there’s no socializing between the genders. They don’t need Takanos, it’s their way of life.
However, in the Litvish/Yeshivish crowds, some Rabanim feel that Takanos are in place, due to the times in which we’re living. Divorce is rampant in the chareidi society, there are too many temptations out there.
DY, popa – Thanks for your explanations.
There is no issur to invite bochurim to a seuda where there are girls. It is a chumra. If someone knows that in his place it leads to problems, one may try to avoid this situation or be advised to do so by his Rov.
apy, Your grasping at straws here.
No, there’s a huge difference.
apy – There is a difference between yiras hachait, and yiras haonesh.
Corey, ain tropis laarayos , there’s no gates when it comes to arayos.
If your a single guy, Don’t do it. Shmiras einayim is very important in yeshiva out of yeshiva doesn’t make a diffi Tzniyus still stands.. Even if the teenage girls are much younger than you… We learn this from Yitzchok and rivkas marriage…
Sometimes people just think about the mitzvah of hachnsas orchim and don’t take other factors into account.
Especially if they have been married for a long time these things sort of fade off a persons mind…
I love how this topic was started only a day ago & the amount of posters flocking to this topic… Corey I guess your title was a good choice 😉
Please note here Corey does not mean any harm with his threads. It’s a certain mentality alot of you guys are not used to;) that’s why alot of people with this sort of mentality are getting blocked. I havn’t been posting long however I’ve done my research… Besides which everyone has their writing styles and should be respected for their very right to be their own (person) poster..lol
UHU….
Many of my Rabbaim friends arrange for groups of bachurim to come when their similar age daughters are away for Shabbos. Others actually have the Rebbe and Talmidim eating together and the women at a different table wither in the same or an adjoining room. IT is being done after consulting with prominent Gedolim.
Let’s tone down some of the rhetoric and be a bit more respectful if possible.
“There is a difference between yiras hachait, and yiras haonesh.”
You are implying that the only yira people have is for their Rabbeim and the onesh that would come if they tick off the Rebbe.
Many people also have yiras shamayim, are endowed with seichel and know when it is and is not appropriate and under what circumstances situations such as being discussed are avoided and not avoided.
Gee, and I eat at a table with a teenage girl all the time. I guess my place in hell is firmly established.
The Wolf
BUMP:)
Hilarious to note that this thread was started 3 days ago and has approx 65 posts!!! LOL:)That reason alone should be why single guys and girls shouldn’t be eating at the same meal together…
even if it’s just popcorn…hmmm is that too random to go well with coffee???lol.
Wolf,
Maybe for other reasons, maybe not, but not because your daughter’s at your table.
bright – Whats the connection?
but not because your daughter’s at your table.
Who says? I don’t believe the OP, or anyone else in this thread for that matter, made any exceptions for one’s daughter.
In the end, even if my daughter is an exception, it doesn’t matter. We sometimes have my sister and her family over for meals… and they have teenage daughters too.
The Wolf
My poor brother, always has to eat at our house with teenaged daughters…
We try not to have friends over when he’s home, but if it happens, frum boys should know basic politeness and tznius. You don’t get into deep conversations, but it’s polite to say Good Shabbos and Thank you to the mother and family in general.
I’m always shocked when boys don’t do that. We’re girls, not aliens from Mars.
saying thank you is must and saying the food was good too. but more then that is overstepping. al tarbeh sicha im ha’isha didnt disappear from chazal.
In the end, even if my daughter is an exception, it doesn’t matter. We sometimes have my sister and her family over for meals… and they have teenage daughters too.
Yes, but the thread doesn’t say you can’t eat at a table with teenage daughters, it says you can’t eat at someone’s house who has teenage daughters. Since it is your house, it is not a problem, if we are being literal.
o stop nitpicking.
it says you can’t eat at someone’s house who has teenage daughters. Since it is your house, it is not a problem, if we are being literal.
By your very own interpretation, it is a problem. My house is one with a teenage daughter. Hence, I can’t eat there.
And, in any event, sometimes I eat by my sister’s house and she has teenage daughters, so I’m doomed to an eternity in hell anyway.
The Wolf
I don’t believe the OP, or anyone else in this thread for that matter, made any exceptions for one’s daughter.
The OP was clearly addressing a shidduch issue, and kiddushin is not tofes with one’s daughter. The rest of the thread goes along the same lines; the discussion never addresses the host having an issue with his daughter, or even with her friends, being at the table.
Wolf, why do you feel the need to be mezalzel (mock) a topic which deserves a serious response.
You’re also making fun of the world to come, by associating Gehinom with hell.
Your disrespect for Jewish values, reflects a lack of self-respect.
It seems that there are some people posting who confuse Litvish with modern. Litvishe people are very ehrlich and frum and so are Chassidishe people. When some people who may be Chasidish or Litvish and look for a loophole, that in my opinion is called modern, something i will not post about as deep down we all know what it means.
There is halacha and in our family, at this point with bar mitzva and bas mitzva ages we have two tables. The young ladies will always go to another table without having to even say anything. Unfortunately, besides the Shulcha Orech there is the new trend to follow the “THEY” or “THEM” which may be very wrong at times even if many do it.
If we are not such a large crowd then men at one end and women at others with facing of only a married couple.
For those who don’t agree ask your dayan or Rav and do what is right for yourself, not for others.
Ms. Critique: I don’t want to know what you mean by “modern”, I think. But show me where in the Shulchan Aruch it says that brothers and sisters above Bar Mitzvah can’t eat at the same table. And why would you think that not doing that would be “searching for loopholes”?
It seems that there are some people posting who confuse Litvish with modern.
Completely incorrect. The litvish gedolim (such as the Moetzes in Europe, Rav Moshe, Rav Aharon, Rav Shneur, etc.) Pasken L’Halacha that an actual mechitza is not required at events, just separation, and that families should sit together at the Shabbos table even with other families (Famous story with Rav Shneur regarding that point). The Chassidish Gedolim (Ger, Satmer, etc.) held L’Halacha that men and women should be separated by mechitzos, not eat together on shabbos, etc.
The source of the Machlokes is how the Bais Hamikdash was set up during the Simchos Bais Hashoeiva.
The story goes that at the first Moetzes in Europe, there was no mechitza set up (the women were on a balcony). They were all ready to start, when the (IIRC) Gerrer Rebbe threatened to walk out because the lack of a mechitza was against his shitta. L’maan Hashalom, they gave in, and ever since, the Agaudah has had mechitzos.
The OP was clearly addressing a shidduch issue, and kiddushin is not tofes with one’s daughter.
Yes, but surely you can’t socialize with everyone kiddushin is not tofes to. Like an eishes ish.
Sam2, i was referring to extended family as cousins not sibblings!
Actually, if one would read the subject of the thread it seems to imply eating alone with the teenaged daughter of someone else, but I dont think the poor writing skills confused anyone.
Unless the girl is 19 how many teenagers are in shidduchim? Is this thread about chassidim or communities where 16 and 17 year old girls are in shidduchim? why assume this is an issue of those in shidduchim. I guess I am guilty of assuming that the OP was addressing a scenario where a family has say a 15 yr old daughter and they invite a 17 yr old boy (or something similar).
Again, to those who stated that it is OK for a Rav or Rebbe to invite male guests with their teenaged daughters at the table and not OK for someone else to do the same, they simply failed to explain the difference, at least to me.
I would say a guy that would eat at a house, knowing that there are girls in shidduchim there, should be considered a male pig…
a pig shows off his split feet even though he doesn’t chew his cud…
I would not date a guy that eats in houses knowing that there are older girls there… to put it on a simple level, we can call it ta’aruvos!! same as eating pork, they have slit feet ya know..
and inevitably you are what you eat!!!!
pba,
Yes, but surely you can’t socialize with everyone kiddushin is not tofes to. Like an eishes ish.
Of course; that wasn’t my point. I just enjoy nitpicking a nitpicker’s nitpicking; Wolf said that the OP didn’t exclude a daughter, and I was demonstrating that (s)he did.
the OP seems to have disapeared… I guess it’s not a concern for him anymore…lol!!!
Of course; that wasn’t my point. I just enjoy nitpicking a nitpicker’s nitpicking; Wolf said that the OP didn’t exclude a daughter, and I was demonstrating that (s)he did.
As do I. As I did.
pba,
You got me. 🙂
I thing that it really depends on your family and community minhag.
In the surrounding that I grew up, it was unacceptable to eat together with unrelated teenager girls.
Nothing with the girls, only because Hashem incorporated temptations into nature and we gotta deal with it.
So NU?? wats the maskana?? should I stop it or continue? what whould the gedolay hador do?
if you want to strive to become a gadol hador in your lifetime, what do you think the correct decision should be??…I think the answer is obvious, you wouldn’t be contemplating it and asking the question if you conciousely thought it was a 100% muttar!! cause you really know It’s assur!!! there is a cage around a lion for a reason… so you obviously you don’t step into the lions cage unless you are his relatives…
BUMP:) Curry I must say your threads are great topics!!!
Wolf, why do you feel the need to be mezalzel (mock) a topic which deserves a serious response.
Why do you assume that I’m mocking anything? I am being completely serious. I have yet to see anyone here who says that it’s okay to eat at the same table as my nieces — which I do fairly often. As such, I openly admit that I am a sinner who is deserving of punishment. If you’re unable to distinguish sincerity from mocking, then you have to take lessons in how to read between the lines.
You’re also making fun of the world to come, by associating Gehinom with hell.
Gehinom is the punishment in the afterlife. Hell is the punishment in the afterlife. Both are used interchangably by many people. I fail to see how I am making fun of the World to Come by a simple choice of words.
Your disrespect for Jewish values, reflects a lack of self-respect.
Here, you are half-right. I have great respect for Jewish values. On the other hand, I have absolutely no respect for myself.
The Wolf
Mods – In conjunction with my previous post in the LH Thread. –>Half = “Qtpie and Crew”. Ones gotta be blind not to be able to pick up a Troll’er..
real brisker what did I say wrong here to deserve the lable “troller”??? I never did anything to harm you/anyone else?? what do you have against me??? i have no idea who you are… I’m not here to start wars with anyone, however it seems like you are..
i wanna pick up on something that was said here. the diffrence between modern and ortodox. I grew up in a non chassidish(and so to say non livish)kehila and of course home too. Modern to me means people that pasken sheiles for themselves…meaning when they wanna eat something that is not surely kosher they say “what can be inside already thats not kosher”…whereas frum ortodox people would never do things like this. I have seen this so many times here where i live.
Half – Are you not; Qtpie, IceCream:::::::::, mentsch., brichtcoloeredkettlers………?
the diffrence between modern and ortodox. (sic)
Yes. One is orthodox (but could be modern), the other is not Orthodox (but is modern).
Time for you to move.
A few years back a Mizrachi cousin of mine made a chasana. There was mixed seating though no mixed dancing. My cousin of course invited her uncles. One is a very choshiv Litfish Rosh Yeshiva whom everybody has heard of. The other was Chasidish. The Chasidish uncle refused to come while the Litfish R”Y uncle came and sat at the table with my family members (who are not related to him).
He sat there with his wife and married children and he spoke very normally to my mother and my siblings – both men and women. He is a very very frum man and heads one of the most stellar Yeshivos of our time. It was all very normal and pleasant.
If you look at pictures of chassanas from 50 years ago – there was mixed seating there as well. I am not advocating mixed seating – but it is not the biggest Aveira as we can see that our Gedolim participated many events that had it.
We are family friends of an alter Yid from Litta who is in his 90s and related to many Gedolim of yesteryears (Reb Moishe, Reb Yaakov etc.) I have seen pictures of his chassanaha – and all the R”Y are sitting there – with their wives – at the same table.
Of course – they are not teenagers – LOL.
Wolf- It’s totally fine to eat at the same table with your nieces. I’m not a Rav so technically I can’t pasken but someone show me a source that says it’s not allowed. It all depends on what you feel comfortable with. If someone does not feel comfortable eating at the same table with teenage girls/boys, don’t. You obviously do feel comfortable, so go right ahead. It’s not a halacha. And you are not going to burn in hell because of it.
its good for shiduchim, it lets guys get out and see what kind of girls are out there.
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