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Hi, I registered to get some feedback:
I live in a medium size town in the Midwest with one Orthodox shul. We don’t always get a minyan, but probably more than 75% of the time we do. We have a young rabbi who had a baby about 3-4 months ago, and he has been bringing the infant to daven most days. It has been the case when the baby will cry loudly during davening, and he always makes a gurgling sound because of some complication with his trachea (which will correct itself as he gets older).
I find it hard to daven with kavanah sometimes because of the noise the child makes and thought that the in the Shulchan Aruch it says that small children should not be brought to shul unless they can be quiet. But, I’ve also read that the Baal Shem Tov taught that distractions during davening are bought to you in order to force you to increase your concentration.
I have little experience with larger shuls and don’t know what the general practice is concerning small children during davening, but was wondering, since it is the rabbi, and there is no polite way to ask him to reconsider bringing the child, and he might be doing it for practical reasons, e.g. no one to watch the child during those times, what is the feeling of wearing earplugs?
I’ve read this forum enough to know about “ask your LOR” – but in this matter, I can’t really ask him.
thanks
Aryeh, he may be bringing the child to shul because his wife needs help (I don’t know what the situation is – do they have multiple kids? etc).
Perhaps the best thing to do is find some women who would volunteer to watch the child during davening with the premise of chesed rather than annoyance.
In my shul (a moderate size shul in a large Jewish community), kids are welcome if they are quiet. Generally, parents bring pacifiers or something if the kid is in shul, to keep them quiet. I come at the end of shul so that my son (who is over 1 year) can be quiet for about ten minutes and thats it.
One problem with bringing little kids to shul – if they are formula fed, I think if they are in diapers and will possibly soil themselves, they are NOT allowed in shul.
This is a particular sore point with me. I LOVE babies and small children. I do NOT love them in Shul. Your rabbi is out of line, IMO, though to be fair and dan l’kaf zechus, he may be doing so because his wife is seriously in need of sleep, and cannot take care of the baby then. Of course, the answer to that is that he should get her a baby nurse, mother’s helper, babysitter, etc. and absolutely NOT bring the baby with him. There is no excuse for disturbing people during davening.
I experience this every Shabbos and Yom Tov in Shul, and to be honest I am very resentful of the really inconsiderate moms who bring their ill-behaved (and who can blame them, they are little children, after all)and noisy offspring into the ladies’ section, effectively preventing me from being able to concentrate on my davening. Especially bad is when the little ones are eating nosh on Yom Kippur, or crawling under my seat, as has happened many times. When I actually said something to a mother, she berated ME in a very loud voice. All I did was say to her that I would very much appreciate it if she would ask her son to stop crawling under me. She proceeded to tell me that I wanted this to be a kid-unfriendly shul, and who do I think I am. She was also pregnant, so I refrained from answering her further.
When someone has such a mindset, there is no correcting the problem. When the ROV himself has the idea that it is OK to bring a baby into shul (and what about the dirty diapers???), then there is nothing you can say. I suggest the Shul Administration, if any, should gently tell the rabbi, this is not a good idea, and either offer to get him a babysitter for the davening time, so if the baby MUST be taken out of the house at that time, someone can watch the baby in the rabbi’s office or something, or demand that he keep the baby home.
speak with the rabbi about this. i doubt your community if there is not always a minyan is on the level of the baal shem tov. rather than confronting try to see if you or others can help. as said by sjs try to see if someone can watch the baby during that time.
i’m no doc, but if the baby is 3-4 months, has a medical issue and is with the husband during this specific time, his wife might have ppd
Everyone has PPD. Bringing a baby to shul every morning is more likely about letting the Mom get an hour of sleep. I would advise you not to approach the Rabbi unless you really know the circumstances.
Ask an out of town Rov for an eitzah. Seriously, call a well known Rov out of the blue.
Squeak, can you clarify what “everyone has PPD” means? PPD is a real illness post pregnancy but not all women get it. Most women get the “baby blues” which is very different from PPD. Many women get PPD because they are overworked, overwhelmed and have had little support to recover.
Post partum psychosis is totally different and only effects those who had c-sections (IIRC but I think thats true).
Sorry, I didn’t mean to be flippant about PPD. I only meant that it is a common illness. Sending the baby to shul might be something a woman with PPD would do, but it does not prove that she has PPD, nor should that be used as an answer for the OP question. If a mother has a severe case of PPD and frequently needs to distance herself from the baby as a symptom, that is an issue that should be addressed professionally. It would not be a solution to this situation.
Aryeh we are taught that when a child makes a brocho at the top of his voice and gets it wrong, Hashem smiles down on the child in the beauty of his innocent brocho.
Maybe you could look at it like this – the infant is participating in his own way with davening to Hashem
If you look it like this albeit it is not easy it will make you smile and cause you ease of mind at the innocence of the baby making gurgling noises instead of saying the words and as time goes by these noises will indeed become beautiful words that the baby will have learnt from all of you – what a z’chus.
Take a deep breath and enjoy the innocence of the child’s prayers as he/she davens with you.
OK squeak, thank you for clarifying and I agree.
Unfortunately, PPD is not taken seriously many times which can lead to severe depression. But thats a different thread for a different day.
from the rabbi’s point of view – i think it’s a little inconsiderate –
from your point of view – work on yourself not to mind
Nobody, despite your well-intentioned and very chessed-filled words, the bottom line is that men have a chiyuv to daven every day, and women have a chiyuv to raise their children, which is why we are exempt from mitzvos shehaz’man graman. If a woman is nebbich in a sitaution 3-4 months after giving birth or any time during her children’s childhood, lo aleinu, that she is unable or chalilah unwilling to care for her children, then other arrangements need to be made for the care of those kids. It is never an aitzah to bring them to shul before they are old enough to a) control their own behavior and b) not soil diapers. My husband’s need to daven with kavana always trumps her need to get rid of the kids for an hour or two. Most of the time (at least in my shul) the moms are coming to shul with their small children and depositing them inside the main shul with the dads (they somehow manage to discreetly catch their attention, or have a pre-arranged time that the husband knows to come outside and take the children), while they sit outside and shmooze with the other mothers. Call me a cranky old biddy, but I think that is disgraceful. It teaches the kids nothing, and disrupts everyone around that father. Even a quiet kid is distracting, because the babies are so cute to look at that the attention wanders. In my case, I cannot concentrate because I am either already being disturbed by the baby, or just WAITING for him to start being disruptive. Neither alternative is pleasant.
i can’t believe oomis had is in her to be so close minded 😉
I am really not close-minded Moish (yeah, I saw the wink, don’t worry). anyone whoyou really knows me, knows that I am incredibly tolerant. I have just reached that point of ad kahn with the noise in shul. I spent mamesh years of not going to shul at all because I was having babies, rearing babies, running after my toddlers, and teaching my children the need for them to respect quiet time at HOME, much less at shul. Believe me, I wanted to be in shul, too, and see adults, talk to adult, interact with ANYONE over three feet tall. But I had enough respect for kovod haTorah and the shul olam, that I stayed home for as many years as was necessary, until my kids were old enough to sit quietly with their abba or me. I never took a kid in dirty diapers to shul (something which has unfortunately been a SERIOUS problem with one mom by us, who does not see the importance of a fresh-smelling davening area).
I do believe that children should be BROUGHT to shul, to get them used to the routine of it, but I don’t think they should be brought inside, unless they are freshly-diapered, and fast asleep. The only exception – Simchas Torah, and the clean diaper is still the rule. I once had to hear an entire Megillas Esther laining repeated privately, because of the ruckus a child was making one Purim night in my section. It was impossible to hear the megillah. That mom did no mitzvah to bring her child to shul, and possibly had an aveira (is that too harsh – sorry!)
i can’t believe oomis had is in her to be so close minded 😉
Reply #2 Does that mean, Moish, that you think I am so seicheldig and kindhearted, that you could not envision me having a negative middah?????? (if so, thanks…)
don’t push it. i was just making fun- i think everyone’s close-minded in their own way.
the close-minded people can’t tolerate the open-minded.
the open-minded can’t understand the close-minded.
no on gets the gray
and the gray gets no one.
i think that made sense 😉
ames, i think i’m open-minded in a close-minded sort of way.
or is it the other way around?
😉
Wow, moish – you ARE deep!
Nobody, if you are going to say something like that, you cannot pull it out of thin air. Please provide a source. All of the sforim I have seen STRONGLY discourage babies coming to shul
moish: right. like you get the best of both worlds…
I think, that everyone thinks they’re open minded until proven otherwise. No one usually thinks of themself as closeminded. Even the closeminded.
ha squeak, i just know how to put it on 😉
mepal, that should have said “no one thinks of themselves as close-minded. especially the open-minded.”
😉
LOL. You’re probably right. I just have no patience at this point in the day to actually think if I think that your statement gains my approval! So we’ll leave it with a good, old ‘probably’. 🙂
SJS, where did you read that only women with c-sections experience postpartum psychosis? That is entirely new to me.
There have been times where I have needed to daven in shul with a baby.
1. Daven near the door or outside
2. Bring things like food or toys to entertain the baby (ones what won’t disturb others)
3. Be prepared to leave, even in your own silent Shmoneh Esrei, to take a crying baby to a place where they will not cause a disturbance.
wow ames, where’s that midda of the week thread?
haneelavin v’ainan olvin shomin cherpasan v’ainan meishivin… aleihen omer “k’tzais hashemesh begvuraso”
i think that’s right (we said it before but i’m too lazy to look for it.)
ames, that is amazing. Wow
~a~
ames: you’re so good! & thanks (I made sure to pray and bless everyone, including all of you in the CR 🙂 ) 🙂
ames: i wasn’t laughing, i was smiling. & that’s great. a cr success story!
ames: that is just so amazing! that’s so great that you were able to keep quiet & not answer a thing! thanx for thinking of us all!
ames: Amen to the brachot that you gave everybody!
wow. heavy stuff. kol hakavod
ames, if you have a one-yr-old, I’d consider you part of the “grown-ups” group lol.
but anyway, agreed.
ames, did i say it last time? i don’t remember anymore.
haha look at the original name of this topic in the url
moish: wow that is funny!
yeah i saw that 😉
ames
– You are amazing my friend to take that as a kaparah!It is an honor to be your friend!
I feel that if a mother wants to bring her baby to shul then she is entitled to.
However, if the baby becomes disruptive then it is the mother’s chiyuv to take the baby out of shul!
I made sure not to answer him so that I’d get all the reward and kaparah that comes from being shamed in public.
Ames,no one has the right to be mevayeish someone like you were embarrassed. Shame on him. I don’t feel babies belong in shul, but I would have stood up for you!
I feel that if a mother wants to bring her baby to shul then she is entitled to.
However, if the baby becomes disruptive then it is the mother’s chiyuv to take the baby out of shul
Nobody is “entitled” to do anything, much less something that might disrupt and prevent others from davening. People who feel a sense of entitlement, rarely see their own actions as being disruptive to others. Would you feel the same way, if say that same mother felt entitled to bring her baby to the White House and the baby began squalling during a Presidential conference, where you and others were in the middle of conversing with the president? If you say yes, then your response has already proved my point, but if you say no, then why is your conversation with the President more choshuv to you than your conversation with Hashem?
The sad reality is that mothers who bring their babies into the shul, often wait until the baby is REALLY disrupting everyone around them, before finally realizing, hey it’s time to get out of here. I have been through this over and over, and OVER again, and it is always the same scenario, just different mothers and different babies. I think it is a particular inyan with the 20s generation today, that many young people feel as you do, that they are ENTITLED to do this or that. Well surprise – with freedom comes responsibility, and anyone who is not responsible enough to recognize that her sense of freedom should not infringe on others’ right to daven properly and with kavana, is not yet sufficiently mature to be raising the next generation. One cannot raise baalei middos, when one’s own character is lacking in consideration for other people. That is my opinion, I stand by it, I talked the talk and walked the walk with my own children when they were small, and did nothing that I am not asking others to do.
Jaymatt19 with reference to your response I do not need to quote seforim as you more or less demanded of me. All is need to quote is the sefer of common sense and kindness.
No Rabbi would dafka bring his newborn baby into shul for a period of months on end for the sake of it. If his wife is unable to care for the baby at that time of her life and there is no family/communal support to hand then a little charity to allow the Rabbi to bring the baby would not go amiss.
Ames, I am so sorry what happened to you in shul. It is sad to see how unkind people can be and we do try to judge them l’toiva; maybe this guy does not have a family, is troubled etc. That said, may Hashem Bless you for your dignity which is a midoh to be admired
As a footnote to the subject of babies in shul. I do not agree with bringing babies into shul but there is nothing wrong with encouraging children to come to shul as in to shul, sit and daven and if they are too small just to sit for a while with a book of pictures or whatever, not to run around outside like a school playground making a racket.
Anon, I can’t find where I read that. I’ll keep searching and post if I find it.
Ames, I am appalled at what happened to you. Even if you were totally disruptive, no person should embarrass you like that. Especially a man – if he was so makpid on his tefila, don’t you think he would be makpid on making sure not to embarrass someone in public which is MUCH worse? You are a wonderful person and I would have reemed him.
I used to go to shul to daven. I would come at the beginning, stay and daven and then socialize afterwards. Now, since I had a baby, I cannot come. We come in the last ten minutes and sit as long as my son can handle it. If he starts to get even a little noisy, we leave the sanctuary. I try my hardest not to socialize in the sanctuary.
On Purim, my husband and I went to the same megillah at night. We knew that if my son made a peep, one of us would leave and go to the later reading. Since it was bedtime, my son fell asleep on my husband and slept the whole time. Behind me was a woman and her son who was acting like a normal kid – that included making lots of noise, kicking my seat etc. This year I was determined to try extra hard to listen to every word (something I didnt always do in the past) and it made it difficult. I persevered, but I wondered what she or her son got out of Purim – after all, she was talking half the time too!
Oomis, are you slighting Nobody with your “Nobody is “entitled” to do anything, much less something that might disrupt and prevent others from davening”? J/K I agree with you about shul and its a shame that others don’t attempt to respect the davening. I understand there are times where you HAVE to bring your child to shul (an emergency or whatnot), but at least make an attempt to have a clean child and keep them quiet!
ames, that’s terrific that you were able to react that way. I do want to add that unless the man was unbalanced or imagining noises that weren’t there, it’s likely that other babies or children were making noise before you came in with your child. Then he saw you, assumed it was your baby making noise, and yelled at you. And that may also be why no one else said anything–some of them may have been the parents of the children who were making noise.
oomis, I agree that it’s wrong for women to bring children to shul when they disturb others. However, I think it’s possible that some mothers are used to “tuning out” some sounds (for example, when the child is playing, not crying) & don’t realize how loud their children are. That said, I don’t go to shul at this time because my kids are too little to bring.
>>Aryeh we are taught that when a child makes a brocho at the top of his voice and gets it wrong, Hashem smiles down on the child in the beauty of his innocent brocho.
Maybe you could look at it like this – the infant is participating in his own way with davening to Hashem
If you look it like this albeit it is not easy it will make you smile and cause you ease of mind at the innocence of the baby making gurgling noises instead of saying the words and as time goes by these noises will indeed become beautiful words that the baby will have learnt from all of you – what a z’chus.
Take a deep breath and enjoy the innocence of the child’s prayers as he/she davens with you. <<
This is what needs a mekor, Nobody. This has nothing to do with kindness nor common sense.
There are sforim which state how babies are a distraction and how one should behave with them in shul.
>>No Rabbi would dafka bring his newborn baby into shul for a period of months on end for the sake of it. If his wife is unable to care for the baby at that time of her life and there is no family/communal support to hand then a little charity to allow the Rabbi to bring the baby would not go amiss.<<
There is a lack of courtesy here on the part of this Rabbi. If there is already a minyan, let him daven outside with the door open lessening the distraction of the baby. If he is the Minyan let him try to minimize the potential damage.
Why has nothing been arranged for the care of this baby during davening? Is nothing truly available? Is he in denial? Or does he just need some encouraging to get the ball rolling?
As a side note, parents often bring there babies to places where they do not belong. I have no clue if they are naive or they just think their baby is the exception to the rule. My wife and I are still in shock of the number of parents who brought their babies along to be menachem avel when my wife was sitting shiva. We probably had 10 parents who brought their babies (not toddlers or children, BABIES!)
JayMatt, what is wrong with being menachem avel with a baby? I’ve seen it plenty of times and I never thought it was improper. To a funeral, thats improper, but why being menachem avel?
Yeah, let’s get back to the original situation. What’s going on? Are there other kids, what kind of help is the mother getting that she needs? This is the only shul in town. What resources do the baalebatim have to pay for any extra help? Are there any older, wiser, bubby-types who can offer emotional support, medical direction, etc.?
I think we can’t answer for this Rabbi, and what is surely not questionable but a definite is the rush to judgment demonstrated on this thread, on a Rabbi none of you besides OP have even met. In my non Rabbinic opinion, I would say that’s a lot worse than the act discussed.
Aryeh asked an innocent question, as he was second guessing his understanding of the propriety of babies in shul, and requested feedback. Those who provided feedback were helpful and reassuring to Aryeh. Those who suggested depression, emotional and medical neediness, or who passed judgment, are waaaay out of line. This is a real person we are discussing, not a hypothetical situation.
Think about it.
babies should not be in a house of shiva. you are coming for the person or people in the house. even though we all love babies, it’s not the place. about the rabbi with the baby, could be he really doesn’t know it disturbs the kahal. maybe you can get the head of the kehilla to speak to both husband and wife.
Bemused, you’re right. I say that as long as this situation is continuing, and the best solution for the rav is to bring the baby to shul, let him. If it becomes a problem, maybe there are some wives who can set up a rotation schedule to come to shul during the minyan to care for the baby.
I do not come into the CR to be patronised or knocked by anyone and indeed avoid subjects that may be too close for comfort in order to avoid confrontation or offending anybody
When I do post, I offer only my very humble opinions.
However, I can say that I always, always try to find the good in people and occurances and I never pass judgment.
It is a shame that others are unable to do the same.
PS When sitting Shiva I would rather be visited by someone bringing a child, who has obviouly gone out of their way to pay respects that not to be visited and yes, I have sat Shiva and more than once so I can comment.
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