Kashrus of Dunkin Donuts

” Now, when we have a store that has some treif keilim we are mechuyav to assume that all the keilim are treif because they may have been washed together?”

If they were washes together with hot water, you have a problem.

“Same idea for cholov yisrael. Is there a source for the idea that we need to suspect that someone switched it?”

Someone in this very thread testified that exactly happened in a store she frequented.

1. Chevron and DY: If a dishwasher at least arguably cannot become treif, then how exactly would one utensil within a dishwasher make another one treif? Is the entire dishwasher filled up with water at the same time? Are we assuming that if some amount of treif food was stuck to the pan and went into the dishwasher and during the wash cycle that food touched a coffee pot within the swirl of soapy water, that the pot would then be treif? I mean, maybe. But I can’t imagine that if it happened in your kitchen sink, your rov would say it’s treif. Why should it be different if it happens in Starbucks?

2. That is not how halachic suspicion works. If someone knows someone who switched the milk in a specific case, that does not mean that there is a halachic chashash that the milk was switched in other cases.

2a. I don’t believe that there’s a substantive difference between keeping Cholov Yisroel as a din or as a chumra. Since nobody can claim that it has the status of treif al pi halacha, it becomes a matter of what words you use to refer to it, but the milk is the same.

And the reason that they wouldn’t is exactly this; they have a hashgacha that they presumably pay significant amounts of money to, so they obviously want to get frum customers. They wouldn’t switch the milk because if customers find out and tell the rav hamachshir, they will lose their hashgacha and not be able to cater to the frum community. (In the case of a convenience store who happens to carry cholov yisroel milk, I miiiiight think that it’s at least worth a case by case examination.)

VM;

1) As I previously mentioned, it depends on how the dishwasher works. If the soap is released after the hot water with treif food floating in it touched the dishes, it treifs up the dishes. I was told this regarding home dishwashers.

2) Correct, I was illustrating, by example, that it’s likely to be switched. It wasn’t a raya. Understand, though, that the normal rule of “achzukei issur lo mechzkinan” (we don’t assume issur) was suspended for milk (the gezeirah of cholov aku”m), so once the seal is broken, and the milk is unsupervised, it no longer has the status of cholov Yisroel.

2a) That is incorrect. Many poskim do not hold of the heterim of R’ Moshe, the Pri Chodosh, etc. According to these poskim, unsupervised (by a Yid) milk is completely assur (mid’rabbanon). Many people follow these shittos.

There is also an opinion among some rabbonim (the Nirbater Rov is on record, and I spoke to a prominent Litvishe posek who concurs) that R’ Moshe’s heter no longer applies because of some technicalities in the way the distribution of milk has changed. Rav Belsky disagrees, and I’ve heard that R’ Dovid Feinstein holds that his father’s heter still applies.

The point I’m making is that there are a couple of legitimate halachic angles to say that unsupervised milk in America today is absolutely assur, so it’s not semantics to differentiate between keeping C.Y. as din or chumra (I personally keep it as chumra, but since I’ve heard that the modern applicability of the heter is questioned, I am more machmir than previously).

Veltz Meshugener

Let me preface this with: My understanding is less than nothing about this or any Halachic topic.This is not the forum for final Halacha, our Rabbis are the ones to ask, I just want help to understand this until I ask my Rabbi. Please don’t infer anything from what I post either way. (or from anyone else here who is not your Rabbi)

That said, Isn’t The very reason for the Heter of Cholov Stam in America because the goy would be scared to loose his business if caught switching cows milk with non kosher milk ?

If yes then it would seem the reason for the Heter ( This incentive ) is no longer applicable with DD, as they where caught switching and there was no consequence, In addition now that they saw they can switch (in their mind) “the more kosher milk” with “the less kosher milk” they may feel no problem with switching an ingredient if need be ( like pig fat or lard for kosher oil etc )

IMHO today where you can buy CY milk almost anywhere in America why take a chance with one who has been caught not being truthful ? If you say you ( like me ) know nothing , perhaps its better not to post kulos that you don’t know so much about ( like me ) unless you do and have semicha on a public forum……So as not to run into the problem of Lifney Iver

In short always ask you Local Orthodox Rabbi for the Halacha in this or any case.

Respectfully

Rab Doniel,

Minor point.

…procedures performed on the cow’s stomach renders the milk treif…

My understanding was that the cow is rendered treif, not the milk per se. The milk inside the cow is then treif because the cow is treif.

I think that you have to tovel a keli if you buy it from a non-jew but non-jews can have non toiveled kailim.

Also, even if you did have to, would it make the food non kosher?

PBA -“Who am I say you shouldn’t be machmir? When a kashrus agency under highly suspicious conditions proclaims you should be machmir on something with absolutely no basis for the chumrah–I can say you don’t have to be.”

Excuse me. It isn’t only one. Star-K concurs. I know R. H from Star-k and he isn’t a Machmir, probably more of a Maikil, and yet he says he should be Machmir L’chatchilla, just Not B’dieved. So I still think it’s a Chutzpa for you to say publically Not to listen to these Kashrus agencies. If you think their P’sak is wrong -you could call them up and discuss it with them.

Or alternately you could have said here in the CR -“So and So Mainstream Poisek says “Mutter L’chatchilla.” Instead of “So and so”, you’d have his real name.

And the star k has never weighed in on it. They say:

“While leniencies exist to allow the coffee in spite of the clean-up issues, Rabbi Moshe Heinemann, shlita, Rabbinic Administrator of the Star-K, has decided against using them.”

That’s about the same as saying, “while tomatoes are muttar, Rabbi Heinemann does not like eating them.” If they wish to impose chumras over what is mandated by halacha, they ought to explicate what the parameters of that chumra is, and why. Then we can all ask our rav.

I don’t see why the kashrus orgs think it is their jurisdiction to be setting chumrah policy for all of us. Let us each ask our own rav. Their jurisdiction is their expertise in food production.

PBA -“I don’t see why the kashrus orgs think it is their jurisdiction to be setting chumrah policy for all of us. Let us each ask our own rav. Their jurisdiction is their expertise in food production.”

This simply is Not true. They deal with all aspects of Kosher and that’s why they have lists on this & that.

I can’t believe that we’ve gotten this far without anyone mentioning the conflict of interest that the Kashrus agencies have. They benefit from being asked to give hechsherim. Starbucks has not asked them for a hechsher (and there are various urban legends about this). How can you then trust them when they recommend that you not drink there? In such a case, it makes a lot of sense to evaluate their arguments but not to accept their specific psak – especially when their psak is so much stricter than their strongest arguments would indicate.

the Star K has a list on their website of what can be bought in a Starbucks that sells treif food. a big factor is if you are away from home or not. if you aren’t then the coffee would have to be an espresso or americano. if you are away from home, they say you can have a regular coffee and lattes and cappuccinos if you don’t hold cholov yisrael only. read the article there for an accurate halachic discussion from a reliable source

sydeals

You probably have never seen a Milk farm before. You actually cannot easily mix pigs and cows milk there.

Nobody milks cows by hand anymore, they heard the cows into a milking barn , attach some apparatus to the utters and some machines milks like 10-15 cows at once. Technically its not Chalov Yisrol or Chalov ASkum, Its Chalov Machine.

The milking apparatus only fits a cow utter, it doesnt fit a pigs utters (Or any other animal) . Its all automated today

daas yochid-

im just curious who in dd wud refill the cholov yisrael milk container. im sure the non jewish owner (who wud be the one loosing money) does not have time to come every single day to refill the used container. u think the workers r under orders to refill it? def easier for them to operate normally w new containers every day..

rebdoniel-

thats the reason for rav moshe feinsteins heter 4 eating cholov stam..

You need to go to a Dairy farm and see how cows are actually milked. You will realize its almost impossible for anyone to mix milks there.

It isnt like the worker in Dunkin Donuts switching milk containers.

You must think that a milk maid sits under the cow and milks it, If that was done then it would be possible to mix it up. But thats not how its done.

You cant lie and hide something, there is no easy way to put anything in it. The Milk is basically unexposed to the air until you pour it out of the Milk Carton. Its all done by machine.

A Machine Milks the cows, The Milk is put in a large vat where its pasterized and Homegized. The milk is then pumped into a large truck (That looks like an oil truck) and trucked to the packaging factory, The milk is then pumped out of the truck into the packaging machine where the milk is poured into the Milk Cartons,

ZD, it is indeed unlikely that milk from any other animal is mixed in. The issue, though, revolves around understanding the nature of the gezeiras Chaza”l, which still applies despite the stated reason no longer applying.

yehudayona – While in Saudi Arabia and other countries they do. I remember reading about this Frum chaplain that almost added the milk -thinking it was Cow’s milk to his coffee. In the nick of time he found out that it’s camel’s milk, but they pass it off as cow’s milk – so the american soldiers will drink it.

ZD, no they’re not putting in pig’s milk on the farm. I am not nearly as confident that they don’t switch to non CY milk, though.

ZD, no they’re not putting in pig’s milk on the farm. I am no nearly as confident that they don’t switch to non CY milk, though.

Chalav Stam is not trief like Pigs Milk

BTW I think on of the reasons regular Milk is ok, is because its not Chalav Akum, but rather Chalov Machine.

I dont think even in Chalav Yisroel does a jew milk the cow, Its probably the same machine in the same dairy farm (Likely a special run where someone just watches the process)

“While in Saudi Arabia and other countries they do.”

Rav Moshe issued his psak for the USA, not Saudi Arabia.

Why are people putting all DD into the same basket. DD is a franchise operation. A DD on one block and the DD on the very next block might be owned by two different people, one who misleads people and one who does not. Is there a din “chalav shnisalem min ha’ayin” that one must suspect a switcheroo where there is no reason to believe so? Is it a matter of practice that the coffee pot is washed in the same sink as the dishes the bacon strips were served on, or cooked in? Is this a practice followed in every DD? I know for a fact that this is not the practice at the DD in my neighborhood. When I worked in kashrus, I came across many establishments (usually hotels) that did not wash their coffee pots, or the parts from the machines that brewed the coffee in the same sinks as the other dirty dishes for various reasons (one place washed these pots with the drinking glasses only). If you really want DD and want to be certain about the kashrus of the coffee and everything else in the cup as well, invest $10 on a 4 cup percolator, buy a bag of DD coffee (many flavors have a hechsher), buy whatever milk you normally do, buy any and all flavorings that have a hechsher you are confortable with and enjoy your coffee. Unless you are a rav or a neighborhood posek though, dont go assuring every neighborhood establishment that sells coffee.

“which still applies despite the stated reason no longer applying.”

The way it was explained to me, Rav moshe Z’l never said the reason for the gezeira does not apply, rather, the government rules, laws and oversight satisfies the requirement of chazal.

You sure? How can the mashgiach be sure that what is in the tanker is milk of a cow and not from a horse, or even a goat? How does he know it isnt cloudy water or even soy milk? Surely there is more than just inspecting and sealing a tanker.

I mistakenly formatted my previous post as two paragraphs, it should be one paragraph.

Mods: can you fix post 441681?

ZD -“Thats was Saudi Arabia, not the United States, its not clear to me If you can drink Chalov Stam anywhere else except the US and Canada. I havent even gotten a straight answer about it in Western Europe (England for example)”

apushatayid -“Rav Moshe issued his psak for the USA, not Saudi Arabia.”

That WAS my point! Thanks for reiterating it again & again.

DY -“The issur has nothing to do with who does the milking, as long as there’s no supervision, it’s assur (aside from the heterim which may apply in our times in the U.S.)”

To say in general it’s Assur, no matter what, Is Not true.

Many Achronim are Matter things like cheese, butter, etc.

Some say this applies to powdered milk also, like in the Dunkin Donuts. So acc. to you if it was Assur all the time, except for the US, how could they Matter these things?

So you see that Shittos held that CY was Not as Chomer as you’re saying!

Health, I don’t know what I wrote that made you think I was saying that the gezeirah applies to all milk products according to all shittos, but I didn’t mean that.