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There is an article on the homepage discussing a shuir which Rav Elyashiv shlita gave that deals with the issue: ‘Do potato chips need to be bishul yisroel’. I want to bring up a similar issue.
There is a Dunkin Donuts that is kosher and under the supervision of the local Vaad HaKashrus (and after further research, I found that many of the kosher dunkin donuts in the counrty) rely on the heter of Oleh Al Shulchan M’Lachim when making their dougnuts. Basically, they have a goy lighting the fire for the deep fryer because they say that since dougnuts aren’t a choshuv food, the heter applies and its not a problem of Bishul Akum.
First of all, I think Oleh Al Shulchan M’Lachim nowadays means that its a “choshuv food”. I think a dougnut is “choshuv” enough that it would be served at a Choshuv milchig meal. And 2nd of all, if you have a dunkin donuts smack in the middle of a frum community, how hard is it to get a jew to light the pilot light and therefor save yourself from relying on a heter?
I discussed this with a few prominent poskim and they all agreed and said that this heter shouldn’t apply by doughnuts. In addition, one of the poskim sent the shaila to one of the gedolei hador In E”Y and this gadol who is also a poseik hador agreed that the heter should NOT be relied upon for doughnuts.
how hard is it to get a jew to light the pilot light and therefor save yourself from relying on a heter?
maybe it’s not that they can’t get a Jew, but because this is their Shita, and this is how they hold, they DON”T NEED to find a Jew.
just a venture…
Why do people insist on being machmir on other people? You don’t have enough chumros in your life?
Why not ask the same question on Entenmenns and Drakes that have the best hashgacho in the industry? Do you think their fires are lit by Yidden? What made you wake up and smell the dunkin donuts coffee after all these years??
Zhlopp, you ask interesting questions, but do we know for a fact that they DON’T have a Jew light the fire? If the OU or OK or Chof K give a hechsher on something Entenmanns or Drakes baked or cooked, wouldn’t they do something to ensure that it is not oveir on bishul akum?
Ask the Rav Hamachshir. The Rabbonim involved in the hechsher are choshuv Rabbonim. See what they have to say.
Hockandahalf: When you get 67,000,000 votes you can decide what is Choshuv.
“The discussion of a choshuve or not choshuve food is cute, but irrelevant.”
Wrong. If it was irelevant then Rav Elyashiv would not have to ask whether Barack Obama eats potato chips.
If you hold donuts are chashuv, dont rely on the hetter. If you dont feel they are chashuv, then rely on the hetter. If you dont like donuts, even better, you dont have anything to worry about.
If you hold donuts are chashuv, dont hold of the hetter and feel people shouldnt eat them then stand outside the store and say so. Dont insinuate online, where who knows how many people read your insinuations, that many yidden are being oiver something that you dont agree with. There is no hetter for Rechilus, according to any shitta.
onlyemes:
A number of years ago I learned that the heter of lighting the fire only applies to Ashkenazim, not to Sfardim. I also learned that hechsherim in Israel will have the mashgiach come in early and cook the meat (not fully, halachikally cooked) so that there was no issue of bishul akum.
I saw this 1st hand in a Chineese restaurant once in Jerusalem.
This sugya has much more to it than the people posting here realize, and I suggest you learn it before determining your halachik opinions about it.
First of all, there is a question of whether or not bishul akum applies to donuts at all since they may be pas, in which case there is a heter of pas paltar. This is dependent on a machloket surrounding pas habah b’kisnin in hilchot challah and hilchot bircat hamazon (the question is the status of boiled dough). Though it sounds like the non-pas approach is preferred in hilchot b’rachot, there is another side, and IIRC, R’ Ovadya Yosef rules donuts are ok in part because of this.
Then, even if one says they are bishul and not pas, the OP was correct to bring up oleh al shulchan melachim. However, it is also not obvious how that is defined–some define it for today as that which would be served at a wedding or similarly fancy event, which it is unlikely donuts would be. There are a couple other issues involved, though I have to run at the moment. Point being: learn the sugya a little more in depth.
Most vaadim, when it comes to donuts, rely on it’s not oleh al shulchan melachim combined with the tzad that maybe bishul shemen isn’t bishul. Ask your LoR.
mod39: Be aware that many hechsherim in EY are NOT machmir for the Mechaber/Maran and rely on a Jew lighting the fire. It may be very problematic in Halacha for a Sefardi to rely on any Ashkenazi hechsher. Sefardim be alert!!!
The Avnei Nezer describes “oleh al shulchan melachim” as something one would serve to honor a respected guest. If you were meeting the mechutanim for the first time would you serve doughnuts???
Hockandahalf: actually the heter of a “factory” is Reb Moshe’s chidush and the OU does NOT rely on it except as a tziruf.
The bottom line – if the specific Dunkin’ Donuts store is under a reliable and accepted hashgocha i.e. the community VAAD which is relied upon for everything else, then presumably the rabbonim know the halachas of bishul and pas akum, what may and may not be done, and what MUST be done in order to meet the proper halachic criteria. If the store is NOT under hashgocha, even if everything is made the same way in every store including the kosher ones, I wouldn’t use their products.
It also depends which hashgocho certifies the place. Buyer beware.
oomis: It is very possible that the local Vaad is “reliable and accepted”, but follows a psak in a specific Halacha that is not according to your Rav.
oomis: It is very possible that the local Vaad is “reliable and accepted”, but follows a psak in a specific Halacha that is not according to your Rav. “
Nope. In my neighborhood and its environs, my Rov, as EVERY rov in the neighborhood, is part of the local Vaad. They speak with one voice, after making their decisions together, regarding the kashrus in the community. Even if an individual rov held differently for whatever reason, he would not officially voice that to his congregation, and it is more likely that the dissenter is more meikeil than the Vaad, not vice versa. We had an inyan where my rov was clearly very uncomfortable with an announcement that the Vaad had all the shuls make one Shabbos regarding a particular place of business. I understood the reasons for his discomfiture, but he nevertheless made the announcement just as the Vaad instructed, meaning that this is what we have to do.
oomis: don’t take everything so personally. I meant A PERSON may want to avoid doughnuts from a hechshr he normally trusts if he or his Rav is more machmir in this specific Halacha then this Vaad. For example, I trust the OU in general, but I am makpid on yashan etc and certain times of the year avoid certain products.
The Vaad of 5 towns used to have the mashgiach light the fire. Then they stopped. The Star K relies on the same heterim for their Krispy kreme. Alas, my rav will not let me eat there. Better for my wallet and tummy though.
I was at a fancy chasunah last year around chanukah time. They served donuts for dessert- all types, not just sufganiyot.
oomis: don’t take everything so personally
Did you think I took your response personally? There was nothing offensive in your remarks and I was just commenting on my own neighborhood vaad, which is very stringent, sometimes to a fault, yet an individual rov may be even more lenient than the Vaad, but nonetheless hold by the Vaad’s p’sak.
BTW, there are times when donuts are served to KIDS for dessert at a simcha (though clearly not from DD)…
interesting discussion. In the other thread (on Rav Elyashiv’s words about potato chips) I pointed out that the Aruch Hashulchan EXPLICITLY says that pottaoes are NOT oleh al shulchan melochim, because they are a poor person’s food. methinks that donuts are very similar in that. PM’s quotation of the Avnie nezer that it must be something served to an honored guest seems to be the most acceptable translation of “oleh al shulchan melochim”.
In a similar vein, the question of what to use for kiddush (daytime)and havdalah rests upon the appelation of “chamar medinah”. From my yeshiva days, I remember that this also depended upon a drink that is given to a guest. That includes coffee,but probably not soda=as soda is drunk fro thirst, not for “chashivus”.
cherrybim: R’ Moshe zt”l has a teshuva about using soda for havdalah. As I’m sure you’re aware, you can use chamar medinah for havdalah. R’ Moshe zt”l said you can’t use soda, because it’s basically sugar water, not a drink on its own.
Feif Un: Any soda, or chashave soda?
oomis1105:
Nothing against you, but the statement that every Rav in the “community” holds of the Va’ad is not accurate. Not as if I care one way or the other for the whole conversation, but just for accuracy’s sake (ARK).
My understanding is the Rav Hamachsier is very good, but I have nothing (and know nothing, and want nothing) to do with the whole Kashrus bit.
Feif Un: I’m sorry, I misread your post; hence my response in the form of a question. I remember that Rav Moshe held that tea was not acceptable because it was considered colored water.
cherrybim- neither you nor feif un addresses coffee, which i clearly remember is OK for kiddush (daytime) and havdalah. the logic is inescapable- you always serve coffee to guests. I don’t understand R’Moshe zz’l logic about tea. All drinks are ‘water” including wine (especially if it is “mozug”). please indicate the place of the actual teshuvo.
concerning Pepsi ,and I imagine the same goes for coca cola, I understand rav Ruderman ‘s psak although in my yeshiva they said that soda is drunk to quench thirst , not to honor guests.
Rabbiofberlin: Rav Ruderman’s p’sak was b’davke Pepsi; perhaps because in the 60’s, that was the chamar of the Yeshiva.
In truth I have to hold off what I said about my tea. I know tea is different than coffee in that it’s considered colored water and water of course cannot be chamar medina, but it’s possible tea with sugar is different; so for the time being I retract my tea comment.
And havdalla needs a certain shiur to be drunk so that leaves out hot tea which can only be sipped. And do you serve tea or coffee to guests that is not hot? European Yidden used to drink very hot drinks, so no problem with the shiur at one time , but can/do Americans drink very hot drinks?
i dont understand am i not allowed t eat it or is it better not 2
you were asked to stop using internet abbreviations. please see the rules moderator-80
cherrybim, actually, many poeple serve coffee (or tea) that is not necessarily piping hot…many people let the coffee cool a bit…so your question can be answered easily. When I have to make havdalah on coffee, I put a fair amount of milk into it to cool it.
I still fail to see the difference between tea and coffee as per it being called water. BOTH are water with an infusion of a taste- tea leaves or coffee beans.
And, clearly, if you accept Rav Ruderman’s psak, then tea and coffee are surely OK.
BTW- you keep on writing about havdalah- the same will go for kiddush in the morning,called kuddusha rabbah, when ‘chamar medinah’ is OK.
rabbiofberlin, can i make kiddush on iced tea or iced coffee?
purplegirl- According to what I was taught, YES. They are both ‘chamar medinah’, as you certainly would give your guests these drinks. BUT- Ask your local Rabbi!
thank you rabbi ofberlin!
rob, Any flavor? Diet or regular? Snapple or Lipton?
rabbiofberlin: Yes, I would say teabags and brewed coffee probably would go into the colored water category and instant tea and instant coffee might go into other; unless there is just a special type halacha for tea versus coffee.
Re: Pepsi; remember those were the days when the largest soda you could buy was 12 ounces. It was rare that you had more then that at one meal. So Soda (or pop) had a certain chashivus. Whereas today, you have the 2 and 3 liter bottles and the chashivus is lost; but I don’t know if that has anything to do with chamar medina.
I believe that in R’ Simcha Bunim Cohen’s book, The Radiance of Shabbos, he says that he asked R’ Moshe about using soda, and this was the response he got.
On the OU’s web site (http://www.ou.org/torah/dafyomi/5761/kiddush121400.htm) it says:
feif un- thank you for this thorough comment. I remember very clearly the shittah that you bring down from R’Moshe zz’l and in those yeshiva days we did accordingly. (cherrybim-there is no difference between brewed or instant coffee)Not only for havdalah but also for shabbos morning kiddush, the halocho is the same.BTW- milk was allowed by the Hungarian gedolim but I think that the Chaya Adom in his sefer ‘zichru toras moshe’ disqualifies milk.
I did not know that Rav Ovadia Josef shelita disagrees. I’d love to see his teshuvo. I fail to see what “bitter’ has to do with ‘chamar medinah”. Wine is not bitter and neither is sweet liqueur. His logic about drinking before shacharis is a puzzle to me. As far as I know, you cannot be “jotzeh’ kiddush before you daven shacharis,regardless of what the drink is. I also never heard of your chumroh when not having wine. Routinely, people make kiddush on hard drinks every shabbos morning and some chassidische gedolim prefer “Jash-jajin sorof” over wine in the morning. This is even when there is wine in next room.You’ll have to show me the source of your chumro on when you can use ‘chamar medinah”.
oomis1105:
Nothing against you, but the statement that every Rav in the “community” holds of the Va’ad is not accurate. Not as if I care one way or the other for the whole conversation, but just for accuracy’s sake (ARK).
My understanding is the Rav Hamachsier is very good, but I have nothing (and know nothing, and want nothing) to do with the whole Kashrus bit.
“
GAW, i am not sure if you think you know what community I am from, but it is true that in our VAAD every rov who is a member (that includes all shul rabbonim, with one possibly exception, and that is a whole ‘nother story) from the shuls and from the Yeshivos, speak in one voice, even when one or two may priavtely disagree on an issue. The issue is discussed (so I am told), they reach a conclusion, and all hold by the final p’sak. Perhaps in other communities this is not the case, but it is, in mine.
rob: wine isn’t chamar medinah. Wine is yayin, which is definitely good for kiddush and havdalah. Chamar medinah is questionable, depending on what you’re using it for.
feif un- I don’t get your comments. I know all about wine. As far as I know, chamar medunah is allowed for havdalah and also for kiddush on shabbos morning. I questioned your assertion that you have to walk a mile to find it. I mentioned that many people use “jash”- liquor on shabbos morning even though wine is present and some chassidische rebbes even preferred it to wine on shabbos morning.
Does anyone have any more info about this potential problem of relying on this heter?
qaws: Yes. It’s not a problem. Big poskim have said it’s ok, therefore it’s ok.
Tongue in cheek (no pun) If all this chazerai is muad to give you clogged arteries, rotten teeth, and all yemem machalas, is it really ole al shulchan melochim? The kings used to have poison testers.
In mexico there are krispy kreme stores and if you don’t keep chalav yisrael the rabbis say its fine even for sephardics. (all ingredients are imported with hashgacha and they are bishul goy)
BS”D
Dunkin Donuts are permitted on Pesach due to the principle of loi raui leachilas kelev. You get 60 days for animal abuse if you feed one to a dog.
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