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I’m learning sanhedrin, and thought of this question tonight; my chavrusa wasn’t sure and I didn’t see any sefarim that address it (although the beers might’ve made me miss something). Put simply, does the principle of ‘kim lei b’draba minei’ apply to a ben sorer u’moreh–is he patur from paying back the money or food he stole (see mishnah sanhedrin 9:3), since he is going to be killed? Or maybe because he’s being killed al sheim sofo, then his sekilah isn’t mevatel the stealing? I also remember hearing that there’s a chiluk whether klb”m is mevatel just a kenas, or any monetary chiyuv, so depending on how you understand the keifel payment of the ganav, the halacha could be different. a gut voch to all…
What an interesting question. I’d suppose he IS requires to pay back because his chiyuv misa is not for stealing, but for his lifestyle. He needs other actions and conditions too, before becoming a ben sorer umoreh – my humble opinion.
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I believe the way the Achronim say it (quoting the Rambam) is that it’s Kim Lei because the Azhara is Lo Sochlu Al HaDam. So the Chiyuv to pay back money (until then he could just give back the food) comes at the same time as the Lav that brings with it a Chiyuv Misah.
Not sure who in particular. And the Rambam doesn’t use Lo Sochlu as an Asmachta. He calls it a Lav Shenitan L’azharas Misas Beis Din. The Ramban and other Rishonim ask major questions on this and why it’s not an Azhara Shebichlalos, among other things.
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He is Mechuyav as soon as he steels, not when he eats. The Chiyuv Misa is not really for any of them. It is ?? ?? ?????.
There does not need to be a strict correlation between the maaseh of kom lei bederabah minei and the lav, e.g. see gemara Kesuvos where there is a haveh amina that gozel chelev ve’ochlo is patur since he needs to pick up the chelev (maaseh geneva) in order to eat it (issur chelev).
pcoz: That’s not what the Gemara in Kesubos says. The Hava Amina is that the Hagbaha is considered part of the Ma’aseh Achilah because it’s a necessary part of eating and therefore the Hagbaha and the Achilah is considered Chad Ma’aseh.
This is not the way Reb Nosson Gestetner understands the gemara (Nasan Piryo on Makkos, sugya of lachatov etzim be’yaar).
pcoz: I dunno about that. Just look at Rashi and Tosfos there. It’s around 31a, right?
He says, if Hashem told you to do something then Hashem also meant, do everything you need to do to make that happen also. And conversely for an aveirah.
pcoz: I have no idea how he reads the Gemara then. Because that’s not what the Gemara says.
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